coming OFF traktor scratch - Gemini CDJs a good add-on to home setup?

[zenchicken]

Hi all...

I've been using Traktor Scratch for the last 5 years, using timecoded vinyl. I never felt the need to learn how to mix on CDJs (however I can get it decently done if the cdj has vinyl mode), never bought any CDJs, etc.

I now feel inclined to stop using Traktor or at least stop relying on my computer. I wanna be able to feel confident playing out (which I do on a regular basis) no matter if I'll be playing a mix of vinyl/timecode or vinyl/USB-on-a-CDJ.

I'm a house/techno dj and do not do any elaborate tricks/scratching/whatever. I don't even care for cue points on the CDJ. My current setup is an Allen & Heath Xone:22 and 2 Technics 1210MK2.

I've been researching and found out about the Gemini CDJ-650. It seems like a good alternative to the expensive Pioneers and has USB. I really don't wanna waste time and money burning CDs - so that took buying a used pair of Pioneer 800s off my mind. Does anyone have any experience with these Geminis? Yes, I know build quality won't be as good, but for some 200€ each and to keep a pair at home, it looks good. Am I missing any important details? Any other opinions?

Thanks in advance,

[iambiggles]

Have a look at the Denon SC-2900's - uber cheap and do as much, or more, than the CDJ 900 nexus. FAR better than the Gemini.

[DJ SB]

My neighbor has those Geminis. They suck.

[zenchicken]

iambiggles I'm seeing a single unit of the Denons for 400 pounds which would be some 500€+, while the Geminis are at 250€ each I think. Budget is an issue for me. I'm not really looking for much more in a CDJ than: solid pitch with a good resolution, good vinyl mode - not for scratching but for backcueing tracks and bending, and MAYBE a half-decent loop. Maybe Denon has a cheaper model I'll look into it, I'd rather trust Denon than Gemini that's for sure.

DJ SB - how exactly do they suck? I mean which features suck the most haha.

[Irrational Fear]

Have a look online for some reviews. I know this isn't going to give you the entire picture as user reviews are often only written in two cases- 'product is amazing, or 'product is awful', but the % of either for the Gemini CDJs should give you an indication of where they stand.

Some of the knee-jerk reaction that sometimes pops up with Gemini is a bit unfair, but it is a direct consequence of some well below-par products in that particular market (CDJ250, CDJ600). The CDJ650 & CDJ750 are by all accounts a vast improvements on those models- I've personally only had a play on the CDJ-750 but I was very pleasantly surprised. However what these fleeting plays, and the official product reviews can't show you is the long term reliability, and this seems to be the issue with the Gemini models.

There is nothing to say for certain that those Geminis won't do exactly what you want, and I certainly wouldn't tell you not to go out and buy them based on the name alone (I actually still have a Gemini DD turntable I brought new back in 2001 and it is still in perfect working order despite some heavy use over the years). However when you factor in that colour screen is going to be eating up a big chunk of the cost (the only other CDJs with colour screens are pushing $1.5 - 2k a piece!), it certainly suggests to me that some shortcuts have been taken somewhere.

There are models out there that, whilst doing away with the full colour screen and are a bit more expense, will get you a much more solid reputation. The models I would be looking at would be:

Reloop RMP 2.5 alpha
Reloop RMP 3 alpha
Stanton CMP 800

These are all solid CD/usb/midi players that have a considerably better rep than the Geminis. A good mate has had the RMP 3s for a couple of years now and they are superb decks.

However, the recent price drop on the Denon sc2900s that the poster above mentioned makes these an absolute no-brainer if you can stretch to them. They are full professional level decks, with the best jog wheel I've experienced on any CDJ full stop (and is tension adjustable) and they are built like tanks (a possible downside to this is that they are noticeably heavier than all of the alternative CDJs- but it means they don't feel cheap & plasticy). I've had mine since they were released back in 2012 and they are real workhorses.

There are cheaper Denon units but they would only be available second-hand now, and many have a rotating platter (more akin to a turntable) rather than the normal static jog-wheel on the sc2900. Also most of the older Denon units have rubber play & cue buttons, a big criticism that was corrected with the hardened plastic buttons on the sc2900 & sc3900.

I would suggest that if you were willing to go the older, second-hand route then a better bet would be looking for a pair of Pioneer CDJ400s. These were the first generation of usb-capable players so the loading response might not be quite as swift as the newer players, but they would arguably be the best choice for you on the second-hand market. Solid units that have basic looping, and actually support HID control of software rather than just midi if you did decide to hook them up to Traktor. Here in the UK you can pick up a pair for around £500 (sometimes less), and you shouldn't lose anything should you decide to sell in the future.

What you pay for the various models is probably dependent on where you are based, so it might not be quite so clear cut price-wise. But the thing to consider is that the Gemini 650 is arguably the most expensive of the 'budget' CD decks because of the colour screen (unnecessary by the sounds of your requirements). If you are going to take a chance on a pair like that you would probably be better suited going for something like the Numark NDX400s (or the NDX500 that has just been announced), as not only are they cheaper, but I would also be more trusting of their long term viability than I would with the Geminis.

At that budget level I would definitely be doing a LOT of research as I think the risk of getting stung is quite high- and these units will have minimal re-sale value. I would always advocate saving more and going with the proven stuff, however there are plenty of people who do use the budget stuff and they aren't all breaking so you pay your money and take your chance.

[zenchicken]

Thanks for such a detailed answer Irrational Fear.

I had already searched for reviews, youtube vids, etc, but couldn't really feel satisfied. As you said many were not thorough, others felt biased.

My budget can't go much higher than 400€ for a pair. Yes I could save up longer but it doesn't feel really necessary as I'd rather spend the money on music and the decks are only for home mixing and practicing, maybe putting together some recorded mixes once in a while. When playing out I'll always have Pioneers available and that's where I care about top quality and reliability. That said, I also don't wanna spend money on two piles of crap and be frustrated by my equipment. Been there, done that!

You got me thinking that I don't really need the color screen of the Geminis, especially since I'm trying to go "back to basics" with my mixing. I had looked into the 650s because the platter & pitch seemed accurate. I had also looked into the RMP-2s and decided against them, but the RMP-3s look good IF I can get a good second hand deal for them. Just saw an ad for a pair going for 300€, altho I don't think they're the Alpha edition (I may be wrong). So right now I'm gravitating towards the Reloops... One thing I really care about is vinyl mode - bending on the outer rim, "scratching" on top of the platter, Pioneer style. I know the RMP3 do this, do the RMP2/2.5 do it as well? Also saw an ad for a pair of RMP2 going for 200€.

Regarding the CDJ-400s I think they're solid and have used them before however the jog always feels small to me. Maybe it's because I'm coming from vinyl... anyway where I live they're going for about 400€ each used which I don't think they're worth.

The Numarks look plain ugly to me. Can't get past that, hah!

[EvolutionaryFault]

If you have to wait/save; swallow your pride and do it

I just took that pill myself; and had to double my CDJ budget (looking for 900NXS cover 850s now). Yeah it's going to cost me an arm and a leg; but at least it means my equipment will play nice with all my software, and has a decent manufacturer to boot.

I wouldn't rec the Denons; but that's only because of personal bias (I had a pair of S5000 before moving to V7s; I hated them).
OOPS I lied; I just google'd them. That's nice!


I know it's harsh, but CDJs do a lot more thinking than controllers, and do it within a buffer; hence they're mad pricey. I would at the VERY LEAST get the CDJ 400's. 850's have more Loop options, and more 'familiar' jogs. I know that blows your budget; but if you're moving down from vinyl, how much are you going to like touching a CDJ with an itty bitty wheel?

you can get a pair of 850's for under 1000 (US/CAD), and you get big jogs and HID. Alternatively, if you want CDJ's and DON'T care about HID; maybe a pair of 800's? surprisingly low priced these days used...
Numark NDX 800/900 are gioing cheap used too ($300 a piece?). They look ugly, but they're full size, and it helps them out a bit
Denon's got small scale players too (S1200) that could be affordable.

I vote the biggest pioneer CDJ you're willing to save for.
1) I hate rebuying DJ gear
2) I hate outgrowing DJ gear
3) Pioneer holds value ridiculously,

[zenchicken]

I don't care at all about HID or connecting the CDJs to a computer. As stated before all I want is a jogwheel that functions in vinyl mode "Pioneer style", fine pitch resolution, MP3 (preferably in an USB stick) and MAYBE a half-decent autoloop.

The CDJ-800 would be my first choice while going on the 2nd hand market except they don't have USB... and I dread having to burn all my music on CDs just to keep at home while using USB sticks playing out. Seems like a waste of CDs to me.

I can play fine on the CDJ400s however they do seem small. I guess I could get used to them... but I can get a pair of 800s for about half the price of a pair of 400s... except 800s don't have USB... aaaaaaah this is doing my head in

[SlvrDragon50]

USB is worth it.

I rarely mixed when I had a 1000 because I was so annoyed with burning CDs.

[Irrational Fear]

I had also looked into the RMP-2s and decided against them, but the RMP-3s look good IF I can get a good second hand deal for them. Just saw an ad for a pair going for 300€, altho I don't think they're the Alpha edition (I may be wrong). So right now I'm gravitating towards the Reloops... One thing I really care about is vinyl mode - bending on the outer rim, "scratching" on top of the platter, Pioneer style. I know the RMP3 do this, do the RMP2/2.5 do it as well? Also saw an ad for a pair of RMP2 going for 200€.

To be honest the 2.5alpha & 3alpha are the only RMPs I would be looking at- the older ones don't seem to be quite so well regarded. That said, I have played on a pair of the original RMP3s and they seemed fine.

One thing I will say about the Reloops though (all the models) is that the jog-wheel (feel & operation) is not of the quality of that on the Pioneers and nowhere near the Denon 2900. It does what you'd expect it to, but it is rather loose for my liking and just doesn't seem to be as precise as my cdj900s or sc2900s. But then at the price there is always going to be the odd compromise to make.

I think if big platter vinyl-mode feel is a key requirement for you (your posts suggest it is), I think you are going to be disappointed with anything other than one of the big platter Pioneer models or the Denon sc2900. None of the cheaper players I've used come close to either of these in that regard.

On the plus side though, not only is the sc2900 the cheapest of these, the platter is (in my opinion) also the best. Unlike the Pioneers that use the ring and plastic wheeled 'bearings' to support their platters, the platter on the 2900 is mounted directly to the player via a central spindle. As well as being super smooth & quiet, it is also tension adjustable (across 4 settings), something you only get on the flagship Pio models.

But I think for your budget you are going to have to have a think and decide what is more important to you. To me you have the following choices;

-2nd hand pair of CDJ800mk2s and put up with burning CDs.

-2nd hand pair of CDJ400s and put up with the smaller jog-wheels.

-2nd hand pair of Reloop RMP 2.5/3alpha and put up with noticeably inferior (but full-size) jog-wheels.

-2nd hand/new pair of SC2900s and put up with having to pay a bit more money.

I just don't think you will find exactly what you are looking for at your budget sadly. Of the above options, and based on your comments, I would have thought the CDJ400s would make the most sense for you. But if you really want the big jog-wheels without burning CDs then the sc2900s would be the obvious choice. These do also have the convenience of being network linkable so you can share a single usb stick, have an excellent looping section and come with hot-cues.

The only 'bare-bones' option that will give you the big platter & usb capability and not much else is the CDJ850, but given they are twice the price of the sc2900 you will have to pay quite a premium to get less features so there is no advantage for you there!