advantages of external mixer over s4?

DJ Life & Community General Discussion
21

it is ironic that you of all people make this statement. you own a digital mixer. your db4 mixes by adding zeros and ones. do you think the DSP in your db4 is better at adding zeros and ones than a CPU running traktor? or do you think your db4 runs some special, super-secret proprietary algorithms to do mixing and filtering which are superior to what NI uses in traktor? if so, think again.

let me quote another post of yours. a while back, you stated:

did you make the comparison in the form of a double-blind test? if not, you should not trust what you’ve heard. perception of audio is heavily influenced by personal biases. there are many very well-documented phenomena were your brain tricks you into hearing something which isn’t actually there. (if you don’t believe me, you might wanna search for the McGurk effect on Youtube. that effect’s particularly fun.)

22

You can always use another external sound card. You could use the audio 2 for example to connect traktor to the mixer, and just use the S4 as a midicontroller. Then you could also have fun with mapping your mixer controls on the s4 to different things! Effect faders! :smiley:/

23

Its not exactly a problem, the eq’s are “almost” kills and the EQ’s are modeled after “real” mixers which do not have full rotary kills.

You have full kill buttons anyhow… Complete kills on install mixers are still relatively new and I’ve never seen a situation which warrants any more than the -30ish cut in Traktor, The DJM800 is only -24db.

I completely “get” the reasoning why you might want to mix externally, if the purpose is to free up knobs / buttons to other tasks… or if you are scratching that you’d need a better Xfader… on in the case of S4 (kinda), that you want the feeling of a real mixer.

Sound quality is not one of the things that would be concerning me.

Your Audio has already been processed through Traktor and the Traktor mixer is still in use regardless of internal/external.

Blind test with both sources with their EQ’s flat, the sound quality should be exactly the same, the difference being the way the external mixer colors the sound (if Traktors mixer colors the sound the damage is already done) you are effectively dual processing.

[QUOTE]- Like Xone said… The mixer feels like a toy compared to high-end mixers

  • Post-Fader effects
  • VU-Meters[/QUOTE]

The DX has at least The feel of a high end mixer + the per channel VU meters :wink:

24

Yes, the DB4 is a digital mixer and it is a hell of a lot better than traktor’s internal mixer. The DB4 has incredible studio grade DSP, Traktor doesn’t come close and you really can’t compare the sound of the two in practice.

Do you mean to tell me that traktor’s effects are studio grade as well and you can’t tell they are traktor’s effects? The same shortcomings traktor’s effects have apply to the filters on traktor’s internal mixer.

25

this is audiophile voodoo. that is all.

26

for the benefit of the OP, i provide a more detailed response to Xonetacular’s post.

[quote]
Do you mean to tell me that traktor’s effects are studio grade as well and you can’t tell they are traktor’s effects? The same shortcomings traktor’s effects have apply to the filters on traktor’s internal mixer.[/QUOTE]
Xonetacular states the DB4 has “studio-grade effects.” what does that even mean? the term sounds like A&H marketing speak to me. and why are traktor’s effects not “studio grade?” for all i know, NI has released instruments and effects which have been used in studios since 1996.

you neither provide any logical argument nor any evidence why the DB4 is “a hell of a lot better”, why traktor “doesn’t come close.” but the most absurd statement is that you “can’t compare the sound of the two in practice.” could you enlighten us as to why that isn’t possible?

27

I know some of this has been said, but here are the reasons I personally switched from an S4 to a DJM 900.

-Effects sound miles better than Traktor. I hardly even use Traktor’s effects anymore, and since the Reverb, Echo, etc. sound much better on the 900, that frees up my midi fighter to map to other effects that I’d rather have (for example, I’d rather use buttons and the effects routing in Traktor for an effect like the gater than use the trans effect on the 900)

-Workflow - the DJM 800 is industry standard for a reason; the controls are laid out in a pretty ergonomic and logical way. Furthermore, I can take an audio 6/10, my x1, carts, and timecode to a club and play basically on the same setup I have at home. That makes things more comfortable and i can probe the depths of the Pio effects to take full advantage of them by practicing on my own.

-Size. The mixer is bigger depth-wise, but the S4 is wider. I use DVS, so the extra width of the S4 is not very appealing.

-Sound quality. People can argue differently with me until the cows come home, but the SQ on this thing blows the S4 out of the water. This was the primary reason for my switch, but keep in mind I am a bit of an audiophile. External mixing makes a substantial sound quality difference, nevermind the soundcard difference. The 900 sounds much more warm, vibrant, punchy, and has a lot more depth. Basically it’s like comparing semi-decent computer speakers to proper production monitors; many people won’t notice/care about the difference, but the production monitors (external mixer) sound substantially better. Filter and the sound color effects sound better as well.

-Post fader effects/effects feeding. This makes it much easier/possible to cut the source from feeding into the effect while keeping the effect on. So, I can feed a track into a reverb or delay, stop feeding it, and have a nice effect trail from it. This makes builds and transitions easier. I know you can sort of do this with T3Delay and T3 Reverb, but it’s just not nearly as good.

-Better cueing system. I can listen to beat effects before applying them to my tracks. That’s pretty nice, to say the least, and is something I’ve wished Traktor had for a long time.

-VU metering and gain knobs that I don’t cringe at using. The gain encoders on the s4 are lame to say the least, and the VU meters have what, 5 sections and no labels?

-Portability. Since my setup is based around an external mixer, I can bring timecode, a sound card, carts, and an x1 to a gig (aside from my laptop, obv). That’s a hell of a lot more convenient than lugging the S4 around.

-Channel faders. The S4 ones don’t feel nearly as nice plus they’re much shorter.

-Multiple DJ potential. My buddy can bring over his s4 and plug it into a free channel so we can jam together. Also, I’m thinking about starting up a club night which potentially might be at a venue without a mixer, so I can set mine up as the mixer for the night.

-Universality/ease of use for other DJs. It’s easy for another DJ to walk up to my setup and know what the hell he’s doing. Unless he’s used an S4 before, it’s going to take a bit longer to get used to that.

-Top DJs. I know this is a slightly silly reason, but it is motivating to be able to tell myself “okay, Roger Sanchez and Laidback Luke use this same mixer and they put out great sets, so there is absolutely no reason I can’t do the same with more practice and time to develop.” Basically it cuts out the excuse of, “Well, I could totally do what they’re doing… If only I had the same equipment.” It’s silly, but it’s more of a fringe benefit that I found.

The S4 is great for what it is and I don’t regret buying it for a second. Its resale has held up well too since I got it with a 15% off coupon at GC. It also got me into Traktor Scratch much more cheaply than my alternatives at the time. It’s a great portable setup too. Plus, it’s flexible with mapping etc. The problem was that I found my mixes sounded substantially better on an external mixer, and that nagged at me until I eventually caved and bought the 900. I was able to afford it and I do love using the thing, so for me I think it was worth it. Others who don’t care as much about SQ/don’t notice the difference… It won’t really matter. YMMV

28

nicely said..

29

“can’t compare in practice” is a figure of speech because the DB4 sounds so much better- and it’s about a lot more the sound quality. Traktor’s internal metering is useless and the fader curve and S4 faders are not great.

The DB4 uses the same FX engine straight from their $60,000 iLive pro touring consoles. Just trying to compare the sound quality and transparency of the reverbs and delays is like night and day. I can hear if a DJ is using a traktor effect because traktor adds a distinct sound colorating and digital noise- DB4 doesn’t. If something is being delayed than it is just getting delayed and it doesn’t add it’s own distinct flavor to the sound.

I’m not sure why this thread has turned into a DB4 vs traktor internal mixer and someone took the time to dig through my post history and quote things I said about the db4 vs traktor from months ago (which are still true), it’s obvious there are some sore S4 owners in here who have never owned decent hardware.

The S4 and traktor’s mixer are by no means bad and traktor’s mixer sounds decent, but they leave a lot to be desired and can’t touch a decent hardware mixer.

30

I mostly agree with this.

I stated this just yesterday in another thread, it doesn’t matter what external mixer you use, DB4, DJM900, DDM4000, the signal is still processed through Traktor internally. Traktor doesn’t have an internal “mixer”, it uses a soundcard and outputs the audio through that soundcard. Turn dowm your gain on Deck A and see what comes out of your external mixer. Turn down your bass EQ on Deck A and hear the difference. So all this speak about the internal mixer on Traktor sounding so horrible is nonsense. External mode disables the “mixer” function on volume faders and the crossfader but the audio is still processed in Traktor.

Your sound is only as good as your speakers. Sound that comes out of your speakers is analog. Sound that comes out of your digital mixer is analog. Does a DB4 have some magical digital way that Traktor doesn’t? No but the differences your hear between different digital mixers is the analog components inside. Audio comes in analog, is converted to digital, processed, and converted back to analog and spit out. The difference is in how the mixers analog components affect the signal. Is there going to be major sound differences? Not at all, unless the analog sound coming out is that of a 1985 Pyramid mixer with a high/low EQ.

Whenever I hear that arguement about Traktor effects I cringe especially when people start saying how they can tell its a Traktor effect and they just sound too digital. All effects are digital unless you are recording in a chamber to get that “chamber” echo. 35 years ago there were major differences in cheap effects to professional studio effects. Now in 2012, does the same type of effect sound different on different units, sure but it doesn’t make it crap, just different and Traktor effects are every bit professional as (cue the angel in heaven music) the DB4.

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by Xonetacular
Yes, the DB4 is a digital mixer and it is a hell of a lot better than traktor’s internal mixer. The DB4 has incredible studio grade DSP, Traktor doesn’t come close and you really can’t compare the sound of the two in practice.

Do you mean to tell me that traktor’s effects are studio grade as well and you can’t tell they are traktor’s effects? The same shortcomings traktor’s effects have apply to the filters on traktor’s internal mixer.

this is audiophile voodoo. that is all. [/QUOTE]

Agreed. The eyes and ears play tricks on people when they hear what they want to hear and see what they want to see. Marketing plays a major role in what people perceive as being better. Do you really think that $50 HDMI cable does something magical that the $5 cable doesn’t do? Do you really think that MONSTER cables are so much superior to a regular old cable that it warrants that huge price difference? Take the pepsi challenge with mixers and you will find out the differences aren’t as great as you would think.

31

No, they don’t. Traktor’s effects sound like traktor’s effects.

Not all digital fx engines are created equal. Just like how you can get VST effects that don’t sound great and you can get fancy plugins that sound phenomenal. Run Traktor’s 12 as a VST and then try to compare the sound of those delays to the delays of something like a Waves plugin. Just because two things are digital doesn’t mean they are on the same level. We’re not talking about stuff like cables here.

32

Yes the sound is still processed by Traktor. The point is that it sends a mostly clean signal to the mixer when you mix externally, hence the point of using classic eq when externally mixing to avoid Traktor’s sound coloration; which then allows the mixer to process the sound in terms of EQing, volume control, etc. Even if it’s not actually a limitation with the technology, the fact is that Traktor’s mixer does not sound as good to my ears as a professional quality mixer (xone 92, db4, DJM 900, etc.) so maybe the answer is that Traktor just sounds like a mid-grade mixer. It’s subjective, but the point here is that mixing in Traktor does not sound as good as mixing with an external, quality mixer. Given the relative price points, this should not be surprising. Sure with software you’re using an expensive laptop as well to balance out the pricing somewhat, but laptops are not exclusively designed for processing sound - mixers are. So, logically you probably have to make some sacrifices when sound is not your sole priority.

As per your point about the effects, yes, I would say Traktor’s effects are professional. That being said, they still don’t sound as pleasing to the ear as the DJM 900 or the DB4. I’m not saying Traktor’s internal mixing and effects are worthless, just that they’re generally not quite as good. It’s not a night and day difference and it’s not something that I would say, “don’t even think about using the internal mixer when you’re gigging!” However, there is a difference, it is pronounced, and it is worth looking into if you can afford to.

You are right about the HDMI cable as far as I’m aware. Thing is though, digital cables don’t process sound, and the discussion at hand is talking about products that do.

33

As a point of interest, I’d like to know what Xonetacular’s playback rate is on Traktor. ALSO, (Xonetacular) are you comparing MP3s to Raw Audio (off a CD). Certainly Bit Rate and Bit Depth have a lot to do with how effects sound but unless you’re comparing two identical tests, the results will be skewed.

At least compare a FLAC file to a Raw Audio file (using these effects) and make sure your Traktor audio settings are as good (equal) as possible before making these judgements because effects in Traktor get applied at the sample rate which is what led me to believe you’re comparing two different sample rates.

I’m not telling you (or anyone else) that the way you want to do something is bad unless you’re trying to convince other people that your way is right when you have little-to-no foundation in facts for them. Everything else (except plugging into the main in and most clubs have mixers you can do that with anyway) you’ve listed as “Reasons why” are really personal choices.

34

This, I think, is the key. It really is hard to appreciate the difference until you hear it for yourself in person with good speakers.

And DigitalTiger, the points Xone and I have made are not about personal choices. They’re real points with legitimate value. How much you value them may be less than we do, but that doesn’t make them irrelevant.

Discussions like this often lead into emotional responses from those who have not experienced both sides of the debate, which then lead to fanboyism and fanatical defense of one’s own equipment. I’m not saying that’s happened here, but we should take care to avoid it in order to keep this thread from being locked.

35

Thank you.

36

Exactly.

Right on again. Traktor’s effects are not bad, I would not hesitate to use them if I didn’t have something better, and there are some in there I really like, but they don’t compare to high end VSTs or high end digital mixers- particularly the db2 and db4.

37

If the faders feel like a toy, then you can get replacements like the Innofader.

38

wow alot of discussion here. before deciding to learn how to dj, i did a bit of sound engineering for venues and bands. this same discussion came into play when digital mixing boards started to become more popular. everyone agreed that analog boards sounded way better but the functionality of digital boards was well worth the compromise.

now in terms of my own usage, i’m more than happy with the sound quality the s4/traktor set up offers compared to some of the lower end controllers. i wanted to know if shelling out for a djm or xone mixer would be worth the extra/if any sound quality. it seems from what i’ve read above that some people think there is and some don’t…so i guess ill just have to go try one out and see for myself T.T

also, is there any way to throw on effects to traktor via plugin..or any other sort?

39

Best method I know of is to route the sound from Traktor into Ableton or the like with Soundflower, then out to your soundcard then the mixer. Also, midi sync Traktor and Ableton. Dubspot’s DJ Endo has some videos about this on youtube. It’s not a perfect solution, but it gets the job done. If you’re on a PC I wouldn’t bother since it doesn’t work nearly as well in my experience, though you may have better luck/a newer system than I tried it on.

40

That’s an expensive proposition when the channel faders are the main offenders. 5 innofaders or an equivalent if you want to replace everything, plus you have to take the unit apart to do so which may void your warranty.I’d rather have it nice stock.