Prejudice against controllerists?!

DJ Life & Community General Discussion
1

Prejudice against controllerists?!

This thread is not meant to be an emo “waaa, theyre making fun of my toy” thread. Its purpose is to discuss in length the issues we face as controllerists.

First, what do we define as a controllerist? Is it anyone who uses a midi controller instead of the norm of CDJ/TT? Or do we say its anyone who uses the midi device in their own customized fashion? Is the guy with the Herc RMX and VDJ a controllerist? (not bashing you guys, merely trying to figure out at what point are we labeled as such)

Second how do we promote our brand of DJing? How do we get people to take us seriously given the influx of “Microwave DJ’s”? This past weekend I set up my rig and some raver kid is like oh man I want one of those, and I get DJ’s looking at me funny all the time when I show up to perform. How do we get past all the accusations of us not being real DJ’s? Whenever a promoter asks me, so do you use TT or CDJ and I say MIDI they are extremely confused.

I think this “prejudice” is a real issue. Im aware that vinyl guys treated CDJ guys in the same light, but now we have to deal with it in the same vein from two sources, perhaps even more.

I always try to focus on how their is no right or wrong format for DJing. Our purpose is to entertain the crowd. I try to emphasize to my peers that I enjoy what I do and always try to show them why its a legit form of DJing.

So with that said, here are ways to show that controllerism is legit.

  1. Tell them to youtube Ean Golden (may not work for all scenes, but its a great start)

  2. Debunk the auto sync myth. Sure you can press sync and it may work, but show them what happens when you put the effort into beatgridding, its a much tighter mix. Demonstrate how you can beat match in a traditional by ear style.

  3. Show them a fun and simple routine that they could do on your setup but cant do on their Turntables. cue juggling is always fun.

  4. My favorite is to do a 4 deck mix and show them that with controllerism you can truly create a sound that is your own with out having to do a live PA.

  5. Customization! I think the biggest power with controllerism is customization. You can choose how crazy or simple you want to go.

I find that when I keep a cool head, brush off the insult and snide comments and do what I do best, that I become one step closer to bridging the gap.

So lets hear what you guys think about controllerism and the issues we face and how to deal with it.

I would like to hear Ean tell us how he dealt with his entry into DJing via MIDI was it difficult to become accepted amongst his peers? Does prior sucess have anything to do with it?

I hope I was able to bring up an interesting topic that will help spark some ideas in how we can move forward professional amongst our peers.

This is Animus, Im a MIDI fighter.

2

Totally know what you are talking about!

I went to meet up with a promoter once and he asked what kit i needed to have, he meant TT’s or CDJ. I said that i needed just a master mixer hooked to the PA and that was it. He looked at quite puzzled and asked about “actual” dj gear. I told him i used a computer and a keyboard (UMX 25) and he laughed at me in my face and told me to get some real decks and some real skills!

I played the next wknd and this promoter was at the same place. I had my setup the same as always. When he noticed i was juggling some tracks along with some looping and effects tricks and the crowd where responding really well he come up and said he was wanting me to play the next wknd.

I told him to go **** himself and a whole lot of stuff straight from the heart. Drastic i know but i took a stand. I dj for the music and the crowd NOT the people who like shiny, expensive, “Traditional” equipment and to “look cool”.

I keep telling myself that “Controllerism is Realism.”

peace

ps. and to answer your question, i believe a controllerist is like what moldover says “traditional/turntable style techniques but using a computer and a controller” so yeh i reckon herc rmx + vdj is controllerism.

3

Personally I could care less what people think, if and when it ever happens that I do play out again, it will be digital as that’s how i decided to restart rather than TT’s, as Andy already said it’s got nothing to do with what gear you have it’s how you use it and tunes you play simple as that, if I do a mix and can add fx and loops and now I have been shown do some beat juggling, then i shall.

sorry to say and i have said this on another website technology waits for no man, think of the original dj’s with 1 turntable just changing the records to the guys who thought up turntabalism and then scratching and mixing it’s just evolved and it will no doubt evolve further, people need to have a forward thinking mindset.

don’t get me wrong I still have my 1210’s and my vinyl those will never leave my side until i depart this mortal coil, but as for playing on them no that’s a thing of the past, maybe for a laugh and just because i love the feel of vinyl but digital and controllers for me is the way forward :slight_smile:

give you an idea the 13 year break i took was just when mixers starting getting EQ’s and before CDJ’s! so i missed all of this, so I know nothing about CDJ i skipped a whole generation do I care nope :slight_smile:

4

not to discredit your thread but my opinion is a big wopping WHO CARES when it comes to controller prejudice. if your good at what you do people will realize it. andy’s story was a perfect example, and good on you andy for telling that hack to fuck off when he came begging for you to come back hahaha i thought that was awesome!

i’m finding that this year especially oldschool djs and promoters are starting to come around. There’s a shitload and I mean a shitload of high profile artists using controllers in their sets now, the only people who don’t know are some fred flinstone-ass motherfuckers who need to get with the times.

all you can do is invite these guys to your events and hand them a demo, i wouldn’t waste anymore time then that on some crusty old dinosaur. if you’re really good at what you do it’s their loss, not yours and definitely not controllerists in general.

we shouldn’t be defining what we do by the tools we use. it’s not about our equipment it’s about mixing some music together for people to dance to… thats it!

I don’t categorize other musicians by who plays electric guitar and who plays acoustic guitar, so why should us DJs do the same regarding our equipment?

5

Viva la revolution :slight_smile:

6

good words!!

7

@duerr

Its true why should we care, but the truth is, I dont really think controllerism is widely accepted as legit yet. Sure I can do a banging mix, but then Im criticized for using a laptop. (Serato doesnt count apparently) Your counterpoint was well written, but I still feel there is a group of us out there who suffer from this. The reason I even wrote this was because of the influx of new super budgeted “toys” coming out. Im not mad they are coming out, Im glad actually for sole fact that more people who can actually bring something to the table will now be able to. Accessibility is good.

Here is an example of the prejudice I speak of.

In NY the “underground” house music scene is more like a resistance group of vinyl militants who are clinging to their roots. These guys wont even let CDJ DJs spin at their parties. I did a 4 deck min/tech house mix and they asked me to spin, I was thrilled, I showed up started to setup and they asked how do I spin on vynil (they never saw traktor, its serato or die for these guys) I told em I dont, its all via midi. They told me to pack my shit and leave.

True story. And thats just one example. What I would like to see is a focus on how we can overcome this hurdle. Its easy to say whocares, but when you have to deal with it, you HAVE to care.

8

those guys aren’t going to be calling the shots for very much longer my friend… djing has always been about what’s new, what’s innovative what’s interesting. not about some crusty old bastards who are doing the same old same old and exclude people for being different.

I hate to sound cliche but the old saying “what goes around comes around” comes to mind. These cats who are excluding you now, they’re gonna get bitten by the karma bug hard.

just gotta hold your head high, find the promoters and get bookings for events where your choice of equipment won’t be a determining factor. create an audience for your work so that industry professionals will know your brand. If you can show your power in numbers, businessmen will not ignore that.

I saw this interview with Z-Trip where he was talking about when he was just starting out djing and some of his first gigs people cleared the floor because he was doing something different that nobody was used to. Now Z-Trip is widely recognized as being one of the best in the business BECAUSE he was doing something different than people were used to.

9

only last week i ask an old friend of mine who does pr for one of singapore’s more underground but popular club just for an open session on a non crowd night just to have a feel of the sound system and club environment and i ask him what i was doing(dj controllerism set). and i ask him whether i can do it with controllers and he just told me that its just cdjs. its disheartening i know but stand strong to what you are doing times are changing people will accept this idealism sooner or later. yes there would be people who would get controllers and stuff especially when there are influx of controllers in the market and people getting into it but those who are serious about it would definitely stay on and do more than what they started out and thoes who just takes it as a fad would die off same goes for how people would take up djing years back with tts and cdjs. only those who are really serious in what they are doing stays on. i started out with just a dj-tech i mix controller and am progressing more and more by the day and still learning. with forums like djtechtools people would be aware of what we are doing and a good guidance to what controllerism would be about. just like i said keep on doing what you are doing and stand strong in what you are doing and your believes.

10

I’ve talked about that in other post. People who are not innovative will never like changes, they are in The Comfort Zone:

check wikipedia: Comfort zone - Wikipedia
check the book: Who Moved My Cheese? - Wikipedia

People like that, as whe wiki says, will always be stressed out about all those changes and they have a fear that they will be all alone and without audience when the “cheese” runs out, as the book says. People with fear will do anything to overcome their fear. When you see people like that, try to recommend this book and this wiki post.

My Background: I work at the Information Technology industry as a Oracle Database Administrator tuning the performance of the DBs in a Mobile Phone service company. I need to always know (in deep) what the people who are “Early Adopters” liked to see runing in their Database. I know when I’m good and up-to-date with the market knowlage when all those Comfort Zone’s guys laugh of my face or doesn’t even know what I’m talking about.

Don’t be shy or angry because of their attitude, you’re the smartest guy for beign soo advanced for the time you live. Advanced minds will never be understood for “Late Adopters” people, read some scientists biographies and you will know some stories that ends with awfull deaths.

check out the wiki again: Early adopter - Wikipedia
and for the last time in this post (maybe): Diffusion of innovations - Wikipedia

We are on the early adopters people right now. Ean, Moldover, Kaito, Tom Cosm and all those people that the early adopters love to see inventing stuff at the you tube are the Innovators.

As I’m entering the DJ world right know, I’ve never played on a CDJ and I’ll not know how to do it like the DJs that are playing now because I want to work with the TOP techniques and with stuff that allows me to play with more creativity.

Knowlage is everything, as a DJ we need to know how the human head works to be sucessfull, but not only the audience head works, the producer’s and the fellow DJ’s head too, otherwise we will always be angry and desolated because of these episodes.

ps: Sorry about my languages mistakes, I’m practicing. :wink:

11

I love it when this happens, seriously, I always tell the guy with the bad attitude how old, out of touch and completely behind the times they are, I really do just laugh and point at their record crates and smile. I’m a dick when someone gives me attitude, I respond with that kinda “instant karma” attitude, however they treat me is how I treat them, usually right then and there.

look at these moments as a chance to laugh in the face of the childish stupidity of others, its actually really funny when you drop the reverse snobbery on them.

“WOW, you actually dont know what midi or timecode is? where the hell have you been man, playing in the 90’s or something, you know that was almost 2 full decades ago right dude?” this is ALWAYS hilarious.

12

As a vinyl DJ, then CD DJ, now controllerist I see both sides of this.

People see it as “anyone could get up there with a laptop and controller and through a set togehter”. I admit, you can easily through a basic set together once you have got you grids / warp markers set up.

You can go more advanced with it though than you ever could with vinyl or CD’s. I do feel the ‘auto-beatmatched’ thing is cheating though. I play with Ableton and of course have everything in time. I think I can use it well but still wouldn’t feel 100% comfortable in front of other DJ’s playing out.

Ableton shouldn’t be used to mix 2 tracks though. You might aswell be on decks to do that. For 4+ channels of sound, loops, effects, VST’s etc. Your not going to be able to get near that on decks.

it is the way forward. Why should the DJ be forced to beatmatch. I can do it if I want to, but chose to use my time elsewhere.

Catch 22. The CD guys got this stick from vinyl guys (including me). It’s swings and roundabouts. In 10 years time, we might be giving it to the next generation of gear.

13

Man, I can’t beatmash properly if I want to, as I’m starting out now, I don’t see why I need to do it.

Lets argue with Math, Do you need to know the Scientific Method that Pitagoras or Bhaskara used to discover their formule? Do you really need to know how to use they in deep to know how to solve a math problem in your life?

I just need to know the basics of the beatmashing, I need to know what it is and how is it done but I don’t really need to practice this without the sync button. You know how to play with vinyl cdjs and controllers, but could you play with controllers without this knowlage? I can, and I don’t consider it cheating, do you consider Pitagoras or Bhaskara cheating? :stuck_out_tongue:
Before their discover, all people would do much more calcs to have the same answer and not everyone would know how to do it.
After their formules the scientists becomes more agile and they could spend more time doing something else even better for the humanity, thats how we keep evolving.

14

Anytime you find a hobby (or profession) where things are expensive your going get people in it that treat it like a car show (It’s the American way) meaning the more expensive your stuff, the more exclusive you are within the crowed. Dj’n and production are about art & about having fun, & unlike the typical over priced collection of “stuff” It takes practice, creativity, talent, dedication, etc.. - knowing this it’s hard for me to take anyone judging my make shift gear seriously.

15

I don’t think this is the best way to handle this situation… You need opportunities like these to be nice and explain to these DJs how you do your thing, this way you will stop beign “the enemy” with the “snobe” attitude and will become the reference to those people. Sometimes, like I’ve said before, they are just with fear of what is changing, and people with fear generally do all sort of strange reactions. :sunglasses:

16

I was ripped slightly as next week…i play out with my Arcade VCI for the first time.

All I said to the hecklers was…“I will give anyone who can pull a mix on my rig a 100 Bucks.”

:slight_smile:

Hope no one tries!

KEKEKEKEKEK

IT’s MINE!

17

No that would like calling a mix dj mixing on turntables a turntablist - something which they are clearly not. A controllerist is a dj mixing on midi gear who is pushing the art of mixing on controllers to the extreme.

Some kid whos just picked up a Herc RMX and is jamming out isn’t worthy of the name controllerist if you ask me, thats something they have to work on to obtain.

18

In my opinion CDJs were like a step backwards. Why would you want to burn CDs all day long when u can have them all at your finger tips. VCI 100 all the way!

The only problem is next time I play out I’m going to have to turn up early check that it is all plugged in ect and have power for my Mac. Which is a bit of a pian in the azz, but to have 4 decks is all worth it.

I live vinyl and agree with mr ciar that would never get rid of it, but CDs are just fkin anoying. They look sht so they haven’t even got that on there side.

19

I want to add my 5 cents here. When you are a dj invited to play at a club you are a “Guest”, guests usually adopt to their hosts requirements and costumes, it is a way of being polite or not? It is the same when you are invited for dinner, you don´t bring your own plates don´t you?
I know controllers are not well looked at the begining on some places, most of the time because people asume that if you are using controllers you are a beginner.

My opinion and what have worked for me is not to force anything man… if it is your first time in that specific club just go with the flow. Try to get your controller as an added equipment for the cdjs or TTS.Tell the guy that you will be using the cdjs or TTs with traktor and if that is possible you would like to add a controller for effects, samples and loops.
When they see what you can do the next time you will be able to set the booth as your will. Just go very respectfully with their booth the first time.

The part of my explanation that you might not like is that in my opinion if you want to be “welcomed” everywhere now a days you must be able to do your thing with Cdjs or TTs also. At least with time code. It will make things 1000 times easier. It is great to be able to adapt your set for any situation, it is something that needs practice but will change you into a real pro Dj.
That is my real opinion, I would never change my controllers is defently the way I prefer to go, But I would not consider myself a pro dj if I wasn´t able to play with TTs ir Cdjs, I could make and analogy with a pilot who only knows how to fly with autopilot on, you know someday he will need to manually land the plane.
I have a small nano control that I use when cdjing or with TTs, if I am not able to take my VCi because of lack of space. I consider that I am an invited Dj so I must follow their rules and gain their respect with their rules. Once you have respect you may play naked if you want :smiley:

Just my personal thought regarding controller djs now a days.

20

I think that’s a very good point, as you could be seen as being awkward (not intentionally) with your setup compared to others

I was trying to think of a good way to describe that and alien2k’s analogy is perfect; sure you could get away with beatgrids but the one time you’re playing out and you realise Traktor got the autogrid wrong and you forgot to do it manually…*

Plus for me I like to know that I could beatmatch if I wanted and that I’m not reliant on Traktor, as Richie Hawtin explains very well I think it just frees up your time to concentrate on other things such as effects/loops/etc.

I guess before I saw this whole community I saw laptop DJing in general as inferior, just as I saw CDs as inferior when I was spinning vinyl. I hold my hands up and say I wasn’t as open-minded back then, but I’m converted now, so I can sort of understand both sides on this one

I do wonder what the solution is though? I guess in time it’ll happen but I think being polite always helps things along :slight_smile:

  • I know you could loop the phrase of an ending track or quickly switch to another track, it was just for arguments sake :stuck_out_tongue: