Scratching vs. Traktors internal mixer; should I upgrade to a physical scratch mixer?

DJ Gear & Hardware Hardware: Controllers, Mods and Gear
, , ,
1

Scratching vs. Traktors internal mixer; should I upgrade to a physical scratch mixer?

Hi everyone,

I am currently considering to buy a new mixer. But I am not sure, if I really should spent the money, and if I will get the expected effects/results.

Basically I have been mixing “in the box” for the last ten years or so.

Last year I decided that after beatmatching for what feels like an eternity, my 1210s should get some more workout again, and so I decided to pick up some scratching skills. My old analog mixer’s cross fader was far too stiff for scratching, so I needed something new. At that time however scratching was more like an experiment for me that I wanted to try out. So I went as cheap as possible, and got an DJ Tech DJM-101 for like 20€ or something.

Since I found that I do really like scratching, I think it might be wise to step up the equipment at least a bit.

My main concern comes from the fact, that I am using a software driven CrossFader. As I am running a DVS setup, I have some latency involved anyways (currently 8.8ms according to Traktor), I wonder if I might need to eliminate any potential lag on the crossfader response times, to take it up a level.

So I think it makes sense to go with a physical mixer again. But maybe I am wrong. So my first question would be:

Has anyone of you turntablists in here ever compared the crossfader response times of a software based mixer (e.g. Traktor’s internal) to a physical mixer, and if so, was it a notable difference for you?

Second part of my question would be what are in mid-2016 the recommended choices for someone like me who wants the following out of his mixer:

  • home usage only
  • adjustable CrossFader Curve
  • Innofader (or similar “wear-less”) CrossFader
  • two channels

I think I am basically in the market for something like the DJ Tech 2S or the Mixars Cut.
The last DJ Tech Tools budget mixer comparision is already 2 years old, I guess there’s more that I should consider by now?

Thanks for any insights, or advise.

2

Ni z2?

3

Z2 is an option (although probably a too expensive one).
Anyways, I am more interested in the general reception in regards to wether the physical mixer will make a difference in my situation, or if the latency of the inside the box crossfader can be neglected.

4

Yes, it will make a huge, HUGE difference.

How much do you want to spend? The Z2 is a solid choice, but you can do it cheaper, especially if you already have an audio interface (and it sounds like you do?)

5

I have an Audio 4 DJ.

I also started to do some experiments of my own, and measured the overall latency (incl. Audio latency) of the chain. I did a parallel recording of Traktor internally and also recorded the “click” of the Crossfader via my phone. (I recorded some audio in the beginning to sync the two recordings later on.)

Results were interesting. From the moment of the click to digital silence in the traktor recording, Isee varying delays between 42 to 17 ms, with an average of 24ms. Yikes.
Based on these measurements I expect it to be a significant difference if I eliminate the digital mixer stage.

I had a friend borrow me his DJM900 today, have yet to try it out though.

Back to your question Patch - I would ideally like to spent only 300€ or less. As said, I will be using the mixer solely here at home for pratice.

6

In that case any good 2 channel battle mixer will suit you fine.

Vestax 05’s can be had for little money on eBay, and are a sound mixer.

7

Just a quick follow up, for those interested.

I hooked up the DJM900 I borrowed yesterday. I chained the mixers, so that I could go back and forth between them seamlessly.

You were right @Patch - it indeed makes a significant difference.
It does not matter so much with slower scratches, so at first I did not really see the benefit of an external mixer.
But as I kept going I got more and more accustomed to the Crossfader on the Pioneer, I also started to go faster.

And then I noticed in particular during higher tempos two aspects:

  • Even though, both faders are set to a sharp curve and have similar dead zones, the cuts are simply “cleaner” on the Pioneer. When switching between the two faders, it feels like the software based solution has some kind of “smear” to it when moved at higher speeds. Hard to describe. I can only guess at this point, but I assume that the “sampling rate” on the fader position on the software mixer is not high enough in those situations.

  • I still tend to “drift” during flaring, i.e. after some iterations, I will close the fader too early / too late. On the software mixer there’s simply no way for me to compensate, I can’t get out of the situation. Typically as soon as I try to rectify this, I will completely mess up. The Pioneer mixer will of course not fix me drifting out of sync (practice, practice, practice…) - BUT interesting enough the absence of any lag on the fader allows me to at least fix it succesfully on the fly, and get back into the flow.

Both of these observations are highly subjective - however I am sold on the idea of getting a physical mixer.

Just to verify my measurements from the weekend, I also repeated the “lag test” on the pioneer fader. As expected, I see only 1ms difference between my fader click and the digital silence, and that millisecond for sure is in the margin of error that inevitably sneaks in when lining up the two waveforms.

OK, so with that settled, I am still open for additional suggestions for mixers. So far we have:

Z2
Vestax 05

Anyone tried Mixars, or last years Reloop models with the Innofader “add-on” ? What about DJ-Tech 2s?

8

If you don’t want to use internal mixing mode then you can cross off the Z2

9

Comparing DJ Tech DJM-101 with a DJM 900 to examine internal vs external mixing is not a fair comparison.

Your comparing a very cheap controller (practically a toy) with a high end industry standard mixer.

The DJ Tech DJM-101 is using pure midi which is why when moving the fader quickly it will struggle to keep up.
Most modern controllers use alternative protocols, Native instruments uses it’s own proprietary NHL protocol, Serato have there own system. These have both allowed huge improvements in the jog wheels on controllers through speed and resolution improvements, which will also improve cross fader performance to.

If anything hooking traktor to an external digital mixer (e.g. Pioneer DJM) will increase latency as you are adding an extra processor / computer (i.e. the mixer) into the signal path. This will however be very small as the dedicated DSP chips used are efficient.

To sum up any decent analogue or digital scratch mixer or scratch mixer controller (e.g. Z2) will be just fine.

10

Thanks for bringing this up, rob2192.
At least my conclusion that internal mixing in general is the problem is incorrect.
MIDI is more likely to be the problem indeed. Point taken.

The Z2 is a tricky thing for me personally, as I’d like to keep the setup mostly modular.
I currently use a Xone:K2 for Cue Point and Track Selection.
If rob2192 is right, I could theoretically also go for an Z1.

I am a fan of keeping it digital if possible, as it also makes recording much easier.
So staying “in the box” for mixing purposes would be OK, if I actually manage to get a comparable performance from a NHL based controller.

Will have to reevaluate my options. :wink:

11

You might be disappointed by the crossfader in the Z1, it’s not really designed for scratching.

It sounds like Vestax 05 or DJ Tech 2S (personally haven’t used either so can’t comment on them) might be the cheeper option given you already have an audio 4. However you could not run 2 turntables for DVS and record the mix as the audio 4 has 4 inputs you would need 6 (3 stereo).

Also bear in mind that you could still use your existing Xone K2 with a Z2, there might just be some doubling up of some controls depending on how the K2 is mapped. And your audio 4 would be useful if you play out and don’t want to take your own mixer.

DJ Craze and DJ Shiftee both have plenty of videos scratching with a Z2 you might want to check out.

Theres lots of good options that i’m sure you would be happy with, I’m not overly into scratching so can’t advise beyond technical capabilities of various setups. Best advice I can give is try before you buy.

12

Doesn’t sound right… :unamused:

13

This is getting off topic, but i’ll try to explain.

It’s basically sticking a extra processor between the usb bus and the digital to analogue converters. This processing takes time, although the heavily optimised system in a mixer does this efficiently enough the added latency is tiny.

You may be able to reduce software / driver processing latency if your doing less processing (i.e. not using any effects) as a result of using a dedicated mixer.

The point I was trying to make is that the external mixer adds a layer of processing so has no advantage over a good software / internal mixing solution. If there is a difference it would be in the software / driver buffer size (latency) or the ADC / DAC buffer size.

What most people don’t realise is that digital mixers are just specialised / optimised computers, digital mixing and signal processing is all maths.

14

That’s all fine and dandy but the way you have written your previous posts (“external digital mixer (e.g. Pioneer DJM) will increase latency”) it sounds like you’re saying there will be less latency if you use external analogue mixer.

15

Theoretically I believe that is correct (compared to and external digital mixer) although this would usually be imperceptible and assumes equal DACs / ADCs.

I don’t want to turn this into an analogue vs digital debate, so I will simplify my point.
There is no advantage of Traktor + external mixer over Traktor + NI control interface (Z2 etc.) in terms of latency.

16

There, fixed that for you :laughing:

17

Boys! Be nice to each other! :smiley:

Thanks for all your input. I will wait a few days before I make a decision.
I might replace the K2 with the F1 I bought a few days ago, but which I am still waiting for to be delivered.
If the F1 can at least give me the basics like Cue Points, Loops, and Browsing then I might acutally trade in the K2 and go for the Z2 as a mixer at home.

Again, thanks for the discussion!

18

F1 is best used for Remix decks. Although there is a pretty decent mapping for it in midi mode…

The good news is, cues/loops and browsing can all be done using the Z2.

Z2 + F1 would actually be a lovely set-up. :+1:

19

Hey,
just wanted to report back how this concluded. I decided to go the NI Route, and bought a Z2.
Been cutting the last few days on it, and been super happy so far with it. Integration into Traktor is of course perfect, but also the Innofader really is a nice Crossfader. As stated previously by you, the latency on the fader is gone, thanks to the proprietary protocol. So everything worked out fine.

Thanks everyone for the discussion and your suggestions!

20

Glad to hear your happy with your new setup and thanks for reporting back it’s nice to hear the outcome.