Sub Bass Headache

Performance & Techniques Music Production
1

Sub Bass Headache

Okay. I’m just gonna say it. I cannot get any decent sub bass in my songs! WHY!?

The last song I did, I had two layered basslines:

a) C3-C4 octave range, EQ’d from 40-80Hz using LF and HP filters.
b) C4-C5 octave range, EQ’d from 80~110Hz using LP and HP filters.

Sounded good on my monitors, burned it to a CD, took it in my car, popped it in (I have subs in my car). And guess what. Weak-ass bass! :rage::rage::rage:

Wtf is going on here!?

And, seemingly illogically, I song I did a few months back with one single bassline in the C3-C4 range EQ’d with about a +6.0db at 78Hz. And it slams. What the hell?

So here is my question really. What octave range do I want to use for the super sub bass? Obviously I’m thinking C3-C4. Any thoughts?

2

Is it maybe something else? Did you do something different with the other song? Look outside the box.

3

I thought maybe it was a different synth, or even the sample that I was using. But I used this simple repetitive pattern for the bass notes and it’s definitely what I was hearing my car.

4

buy a sub?

5

what synth are you using for the low bass? c3-c4 sounds seriously high.

6

Subwoofers used with studio monitors are really expensive. I’m a broke student. That’s out of the realm of possibilities right now.

C3-C4 typically shows up in about the 30-70Hz range on my spectrum analyzer.

I use 3xOsc. Just because it’s what I’ve always used and I’ve been able to get some good basic sounds out of it.

Actually if anyone could recommend a good (free?) vsti that produces solid bass sounds that would be great…

7

make sure your subbass channel is Mono.

8

  1. Set your synth so it only makes a sine wave.

  2. set it to play every note consecutively, starting from the lowest possible and going up.. have it changing every couple of seconds.

  3. Dont add anything else, just bounce that down.

  4. take that track into your car or wherever you’ve got decent bass.

  5. play the track, note which notes sound fullest and have the depth you like..

  6. now use THAT note as the ROOT note for your song.

…any good?

9

It is.

That is a great idea. Thank you!

10

Are you having any Phase issues with your sub-bass’ being layered. Sometimes if the phases are opposing each other (+/-) then they can cancel each other out and cause it to sound weak.

11

I took rjw’s advice (thank you!) and put together a very-exciting CD using different synth, EQ, and compression settings. Each setting I tested three different octaves in. Then I made a very scientific chart, organized by each setting. (It sounds a lot more confusing than it is).

Anyway, if anyone is interested, here is a summary of my results:

  1. Using FL’s 3xOsc, the best way to get a rich, deep sound was to use 3 sine waves, all detuned -24 cents.

  2. Using a harder compression yielded a slightly fewer amount of audible tones, but in general it sounded more solid (duh).

  3. In terms of EQ, boosting at about 30Hz and 70Hz and using a larger Q to smooth it out rather than using a bunch of settings (ie: at 30 50 70 90) sounded a lot fatter.

  4. And finally, what I was most interested in:

These specific notes yielded the deepest, richest bass: D#1, E1, F1, F#1, G1, G#1.

In several instances, C#2 and D2 also gave some deep, but quieter sounds.

Everything below D#1 sounded like shit.

So there you have it. No one else on here really uses FL, so I doubt any of you will really care, but I wanted to feel smart, so there! :stuck_out_tongue:

I think that was part of my problem as well.

12

disclaimer: this is sort of a novel.

It’s been a million years since I’ve used FL studio (it was still called Fruity Loops), so I can’t give specifics on those tools. But in general terms, sub should usually be very simple - one sine wave playing in a very low octave (35-70Hz range, for the root of the bassline), and in some instances a second sine wave tuned an octave up from that (especially if the root is in the 35-50Hz range), but with the amplitude somewhat lower. Detuning is never a good idea, as far as I know (constructive+destructive interference when low sine waves start getting out of phase).

And there’s no need to compress, eq, or in any other way process the sub (except sidechain compression w/ the kick). Compressing a sine wave makes it not a sine wave anymore, adding higher harmonics and detracting from the smooth, uniform sound of the sine wave. And eqing will only cause certain notes to sound louder than others, because there is no spectrum to speak of with a sine wave, only the fundamental. The only type of processing I do on my sub is sometimes putting a gentle (12db/octave or less) lowpass somewhere around 80-100hz, so that if I jump up an octave with the sub line, the higher notes won’t sound so loud and compete with the other low-midrange elements.

In universal terms, there are no specific notes that yield better sounding bass tones, notes are notes - all you did with the test CD in your car was to find out where the resonant peaks and valleys are in the bass response of your particular car, with your particular subwoofer - that’s not going to translate in any meaningful way to any other soundsystem. Every subwoofer+room combination will have different peaks and valleys in the bass response, and as such, will have certain notes that sound louder and fuller, and certain notes that are weak. I imagine this is one of the reasons that drops and bends are so common in bass-heavy music, because rather than sitting on a single frequency, they are moving across a range of frequencies, so they are not going to end up with dead notes as the result of room or subwoofer characteristics.

Also, another thing that can take away from the impression of clean, powerful sub, is when other elements of the song are interfering in the sub frequency range - your kick drum should really be the only other thing that is making noise in the <100Hz range, and you should most likely have a sidechain compressor ducking your sub when the kick is hitting so the kick has a chance to thud a bit. Slap a spectrum analyzer on all of your other channels, and make sure they aren’t making any significant noise below 100hz, because this will just muddy up your sub. Also, in some cases it can really help to make sure that the thud of your kick drum is tuned, in some musically coherent way, to the root of your bassline.

If you are going to be writing music with lots of sub bass, it’s essential to get a decent subwoofer - preferably one that is well matched to your monitors. There are some really reasonable options out there, I worked on a blue sky exo system for a long time ($350ish, for a powered, well matched 2.1 system) and had some really good results, that always translated well on big soundsystems. Until you can afford to get a sub, it’s probably best to just trust your spectrum analyzer, and keep your sub bass instrument simple - a nice loud sine wave in the 35-70hz range WILL sound good on just about any good club system.

lemme know if you need me to explain any of that stuff better.

13

But a pretty damn good read. :slight_smile:

PS That Come Together remix is pretty freakin nice!

14

In a disheartening twist of fate I actually figured that out when I was sitting at work today spacing out.

And yes, that was a solid read. Thank you for taking the time to write that.

I’m gonna level with you. The fact that I even have studio monitors is nothing short of amazing. I’m a broke college kid. Even though a $350 subwoofer is relatively cheap, it’s way out of the question right now. What do you suggest I do in lieu of buying a subwoofer for the time being?

Also, in regards to your comment about not compressing sub basslines, I’ve been told in the past (and also in my own experience) that not using compression will cause your basslines to sound sloppy… remarks?

15

:slight_smile: thanks! I’m cooking up a couple of new bootleg remixes of some other classic rock/pop tunes, along the line of come together, I’ll be posting them up on soundcloud soon.

16

Lambox,

Until you can afford a sub, learning to just trust your spectrum analyzer is probly the only thing you can do. One option would be to bring some professionally mastered tunes, that have the sort of bass levels that you like, into your DAW and look at them on the spectrum analyzer, just to get some sense of what a good sub level looks like - this is obviously a very imperfect solution, but it’s something. In general, referencing (both visually on the spectrum analyzer and just listening) against professional tunes you like can be really helpful. Obviously professionally mastered tunes will sound louder, because they are mastered, but it can be really useful to have them as a reference point for the whole balance of the frequency spectrum.

As far as my reasons for not compressing for sub-bass, it’s really just a matter of how sine waves work. When you compress a signal, you are reducing the dynamic range, and in terms of the wave-form of the sound, you are altering it. With sounds that have a complex spectrum (i.e. anything other than a sine wave), compression alters the relationships (in terms of amplitude) between the partials, and this is one of the ways that compression can give a “tighter” or “punchier” sound. But a sine wave only has one partial, the fundamental, so any changes you make to the dynamic range of a sine wave introduces other partials, and makes it no longer a sine wave - this is basically distortion/saturation. These added frequencies can sometimes help bring the sub-bass forward in the mix and make it more prominent, because our ears/brains are more sensitive to higher frequencies, and when those higher frequencies are harmonically related to the fundamental of the sub bass, we hear them as a single sound. There’s nothing wrong with this technique, I just prefer to approach it differently, because I tend to not like the sound of the partials that compressing a low sine wave creates.

My bass sounds are usually made from two instruments playing the same part in different octaves, one creating the sub, and one creating the midrange(and everything else). Rather than compressing the sub, and thus introducing higher partials, I prefer to just have the mid-bass instrument(s) emphasize those frequencies that are harmonically related to the sub in such a way that will create the impression of a more “punchy” sub.

So I guess I was a little strong in my wording that there is “No need to compress” the sub. Whenever you are using very low sine waves, you almost always want to have some additional sound higher in the frequency range that is harmonically related to the sub, so that your bass sounds more present, punchy, etc. Compression is one way to achieve this, but I personally find that there are other, more flexible and better sounding ways of doing it. Also, I find that some producers put too much emphasis on the midrange elements of the bass sounds (either using compression/saturation, or other methods), at the expense of the fundamental of the sub. While this approach might sound better on a system that lacks a subwoofer, when you bring it out to a monster club or concert system, it sounds weak.

17

:smiley: great advice omega!

18

^^^ Good advice, indeed.

Let me start by thanking you for typing all that out, it’s been especially helpful.

I’ve just now been learning to trust the spectrum analyzer. It’s hard for me to just assume that if something looks right that it also will sound right. It’s kinda like if you were walking in to mix in a club and I handed you a burned cd that was labeled with all your favorite songs, but you weren’t able to listen to see if those songs were actually on the cd until you actually got up to perform. Weak analogy, but does that make sense?

The thing is, I’ve been spending loads of time staring at the frequency analyzer getting it to look like the songs that I’ve run through it that I know have solid basslines. I’ve been able to get the bass parts close, but then when I load it up in my car, the bass is weak.

I’m convinced that the problem is one (or likely both) of these:

  1. My EQing when I use a sub and mid bassline isn’t tight enough and the frequencies are cancelling out.

  2. My whole system is flawed because I’m relying on my own subwoofer that I have in my car.

But then again, when I listen to other people’s songs in my car, they have solid bass. I really am I frustrated.

19

if you know the behaviour of whatever you use for monitoring well, you can do an acceptable downmix even without a subwoofer. for example, because I don’t have enough money ATM to soundproof my new homestudio (let alone buy proper speakers!), I still do my mixes on headphones (beyerdynamic dt-990 pro), but I’ve gotten to know them so well that my livesets sound pretty powerful on big systems. but releasing tracks in a different story, for that I’ll give my stems to a mastering professional because I know very well their skills and setup surpass anything I could possibly do at home… IMO you should focus on what you CAN do instead of trying to find ways to do stuff beyond your capabilities; this will only result in frustration. good monitoring is expensive and there’s really no way around that.

you’re doing a lot of stuff with wobble bass, right? try having the lfo you use to modulate the filter cutoff modulate the subbass volume (because a lowpassfilter won’t do any magic on such a lo-freq sound). you can do this with massive or albino easily. you can also try working with rhythmically placed notes for the subbass (as opposed to a constant tone playing all the way through) and give the synth a slight attack. should produce a similar effect to a compressor and give your subbass more energy.

20

I feel your pain man, I worked for years without a proper sub setup in my studio, and it lead to endless headaches. And trusting your spectrum analyzer is definitely not an ideal solution, but until you can get a decent studio sub, it seems like all you can do.

From looking back at your original post, it seems like you are probably right about some cancellation/interference issues. You said you have one instrument working in the 40-80hz range, and the other in the 80-110hz range. Are they playing the same notes, just an octave apart? And are they just sine waves, or are they other waveforms?

I usually hi-pass my midrange bass instrument around 150-200 Hz, to really make sure that the low end of things is open for just the sine sub and the kick to do their thing.

You mentioned that you had a another track with a single sub instrument, with an eq boost around 78, and it sounds great in your car. Do you know what the low roll off on your car sub is? cuz there’s a good chance that it’s higher than you think. Really low bass, in the <50hz range is very difficult for small subwoofer enclosures to reproduce, so lots of car sub systems have a big boost in the 50-70 range, but totally drop off below that boost. So your sub line might actually just be below what your car sub can do. The reason that other peoples songs sound good is probably because of the mastering process - a lot of mastering engineers will use processing that emphasizes the 60-100hz range, and reduces everything below 60hz, so that on systems that can’t hit the really low notes, you still get the impression of those notes being loud, because the octave up be being boosted.

A lot of my tunes don’t sound quite as bassy on smaller systems, car systems, etc. as compared to some other dubstep/glitch-hop tunes, because I prefer to keep the ultra low sub lines nice and loud, and don’t emphasize that second octave when I master my stuff. But even though they don’t sound as bassy on smaller systems, they crush those other tunes when you get them on a proper show rig that can really hit hard down in the 30-50hz range.