Why did Sasha move away from Ableton and back to CDJ's?

DJ Gear & Hardware CDJ & Vinyl DJing
21

Digital DJing, Ableton sets etc. are great tools but it seems a lot of people jump in to it and then get quite disillusioned after a while, including me.

Like the poster mentioned above, some of the controllerist sets and four deck loop sets are often much worse or boring than hearing tracks played in their entirety. Some DJ’s manage to do interesting things and produce great results but so many of them fail. Even someone like Richie Hawtin rarely produces better results in my eyes. Some of his recent 4 deck looping sets with constant dodgy effects are just awful compared to when he used to use just two technics and a drum machine.

I read an interview with Donnacha Costello a while ago that highlighted this. He had gone 100% digital and got massively in to it until he watched Daniel Bell play a set at a festival in Japan. Bell played an amazing set with two turntables and a mixer. There were no fancy transitions and he would generally play each record out almost in its entirety before making a short, smooth transition to the next tune. He played amazing records that flowed well together without the need or desire to add anything extra to them. It caused Costello to re-think his own approach and go back to basics. Andrew Weatherall is another example. He is without doubt one of the finest DJ’s of our generation and he just plays one tune after another of amazing music with simple mixing.

I’m not having a go at digital DJing. I love using Traktor myself (alongside vinyl). My own experiences of pure digital DJing are that I can either play a simple two deck set with no effects like I used to on decks which makes me feel incredibly bored and disengaged. Or, I can try and do all the fancy stuff, looping and effects - and have fun doing it - but end up producing results worse than the expertly produced music would sound on its own.

The answer could be that I need to improve my digital skills to get better results, but my own answer was to go back to buying vinyl and doing traditional vinyl beatmatching alongside manually beatmatching music in Traktor to go alongside it.

Sorry to ramble but I think all this is one of the major factors that will stop traditional DJing dying completely. In my eyes, it’s just a lot more fun and does absolutely nothing to hinder you as a DJ as long as you are a good one!

22

That’s actually kind of cool. I’ve been wondering about the scs.1d or eks otus for the same kind of reason…except for the fact that they’re both a bit more expensive than I’d like and insanely ugly. I might look into a dn-sc2000 for those days I want to screw around, but I want something that I can play hip hop on…and for me, that means a big motorized platter…which basically means scs.1d or turntables. Bleh. Gear is annoying.

That’s verbatim what I meant by “wanker.” I’m just less verbose and more of a dick about it than you are. Weird.

I like the idea of having a pitch fader around…the DN-SC200 is just so damn small. My X1s are small enough…it barely feels like I’m doing anything. Half of the reason I resisted CDJs was because turntables were just so much bigger. (go ahead, make the cock joke)

With turntables, it felt like you were interacting with a real thing, and it transferred over to DVS very well (even though SSL and I never did get along). CDJs feel like little imitations to me. If I’m going to be using an imitation anyway, why not use something that doesn’t rely on physical media and takes a lot of the grunt work out of it?

As for the other point…putting all my decks in Small mode (I think that’s what it’s called…second from the smallest) made a huge improvement to my DJing. Between that and configuring the lights on some of the buttons on my X1 that I don’t use to be a level meter…it’s almost like actually using equipment again.

The more I think about it, the more I realize I probably should save up for decks and go back to using a DVS. I’d probably pick TSP over SSL this time, since I honestly preferred FS2 to SSL before. And all the nice features are there anyway. It’s just so bloody expensive and adds so little. It’s just a really fun little.

@JohnnyB: Yeah…agreed. I’ve found exactly the same things with All-Digital DJing with the exception that I really did enjoy Ableton…it just looked like I wasn’t doing anything and I kept wanting to do little things that ended up turning into big projects to get working as fluidly as I’d like.

Flash forward to today, and I’m again wondering what to do…I’ve always liked mixing with exactly 3 decks. 2 basic decks and a drum machine sounds pretty freaking awesome to me. And Hawtin’s Decks, effects, and 909 was awesome…and, I agree, better than what I’ve heard out of him lately.

For the time being, it looks like my 3rd deck is either going to be Maschine or Traktor’s sample decks routed to the same output. But it could easily be an ESX-1 or Octatrack or MC-909 or any other groove box…baring cost and the fact that I already own Maschine, of course. Hell, I’ve had the thing for months and have barely scratched the surface of what it can do.

The first 2 are still a bit in flux because I really want to be able to spin hip hop occasionally. And doing it with straight auto-sync Traktor Pro with X1s feels like I’m cheating myself and the genre…it doesn’t have the right tools available.

Damn it. I’m going to keep spinning with what I have, but I think this thread has convinced me to try and afford decks again. God, I wish m5gs still cost $350. $1050 + the software upgrade to pro is a lot more justifiable than $2400 + the software upgrade.

And, man, I really don’t want to have to go with Stanton. Everything they make is so damn ugly.

23

I’ve noticed a bit of a ‘controllerism’ backlash on this forum recently…

I think this is a fair point - although I certainly don’t think Ean is a wanker, I don’t really rate this kind of dj’ing. Having said that, I really respect that he’s flying the flag for this new type of dj’ing and really building a scene where we can all sit around and talk about this stuff. I think I said it best here:

24

Right, I responded to the wanker comment above.

I stand by it, but you and Emmet both explained it better. We all agree…I’m just more of a dick and less verbose about this one issue for some stupid reason (possibly the mild hangover and the fact that I haven’t slept).

25

awesome thread.

i wonder what it says about the quality of today’s music that many feel the need to layer multiple tracks or effect the crap out of it.

26

Layo & Bushwacka seemed to like ‘Cut Me Down’, as did some large audiences in Ibiza.

Both Involvers have stood the test of time.

Ean is not my cup of tea musically either - but isn’t wanker a bit harsh?

27

I don’t think it’s because the songs suck, although there’s more crap ones than good ones. I think it speaks more to the fact that people feel like they need to do something behind the decks. People FX the crap out of stuff because they have a 7 minute song that they can sync up and play in about 3 seconds so they’re left with 6:57 to look busy.

28

LoLz, completely slipped my attention… than again, I usually tend to speed read through mostapha’s posts as they usually are full off rampant/blatant accusations. I might have to talk to him about this if this goes too far…

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I’ve been reading all of them recently and he seems to be behaving…for the most part :wink:

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I’m with PJ on that one. A lot of people aren’t content to just sit back and enjoy the music they want other people to enjoy.

Unlike him, though, I don’t think it has much to do with sync. Beat matching doesn’t take that much more time to do when you’re good at it…it just takes longer to learn. It certainly doesn’t take 7 minutes.

I think it has more to do with people’s attention spans being shorter now than when EDM started making 7-10 minute tracks…whether that’s a good thing or not is largely a matter of opinion and artistic sensibilities that I really don’t care that much about, but I think that’s where it comes from.

Agreed on Involvers.

And, well, I’ve always used wanker as a half-hearted semi-insult that’s almost a term of endearment. But, I’m not actually Brittish, so if that’s not appropriate, I apologize. Would tosser be a better choice? Both sound less harsh than self-aggrandizing ham, and that’s why I chose it. Plus, Brittish people are just better at swearing than Americans. And, I mean…we’re all wankers about something…even if it’s just wanking.

Keep in mind that I said I do respect what he’s built here and what he’s done for controller-based DJing…I’d probably buy him a beer if he drinks and I ever met him in person, it just wouldn’t be during one of his sets.

I just think his artistic vision doesn’t at all fit with what I want to listen to, and I have yet to figure out why anyone would follow it. Technologically, it’s impressive. Musically…it just sounds like mushy noise to me.

I’ve been reading all of them recently and he seems to be behaving…for the most part :wink:[/QUOTE]

Weird, tekki. Opinions, yes, blatant accusations…I’m not sure I know what you’re talking about. I have an argumentative writing style if that’s what you mean, but if you have specific examples of things that I should tone down or just not write because they come off too inflammatory, I’d appreciate hearing them in a PM. Trolling this forum is no longer my intention. But I do like a good dialectic about art or gear whenever they can come up.

Also, the phrase “self-aggrandizing ham” was obviously a joke. I stopped just short of making an un-called-for hipster reference because he really does seem to enjoy what he does…and that alone makes it inappropriate. It’s just so easy with the hair and the t-shirts and the arcade buttons.

Okay…that might have gone too far. But, It’s all just from well-intentioned fun. And sleep deprivation.

31

I have to agree with this. I really appreciate what Ean has done for DJ technology but I would never invest any time let alone pay to see him perform. I think there has been a little ‘controllerism’ backlash on here since there are a lot of beginners who get into DJing and want to be EFX mashing controllerists right away and I’ve noticed it with a lot with mixes people post on another website I visit. i It seems a lot of people are more focused on button mashing on the instant gratification map than actually making any sort of attempt at a coherent mix.

I think it’s good that technology is exciting people about DJing, but right now I see it breeding a lot of bad DJ habits. I’m not sure if this is exclusive to controllers in general, I’m sure the same was true when affordable CD decks became available but now DJing is more accessible than ever.

32

I really agree, the same happened to me… I am not saying that this happened with Sasha, but I have heard this story many times now…

The thing about performing is to share emotions thorugh an instrument, in this case your decks. For anybody that has played any instrument and performed with it will inmediately feel very strange the sensation of controlling a machine in order to get sounds out of it.

On the other hand the feeling of having an analogue instrument as 2 vinyl decks and make them sound great together does totally feel like playing any other musical instrument.

I always felt that playing 4 decks with tracktor was like being the orchestra director, I did not even get too much nerves before playing live. The music was safe, I just had to tell the software what to do. My nerves were only focused on the reliability of the gear.

On the other hand when I play on vinyl even on cd decks I really have the feel and conection with music as the muscician from an orchestra would. And I get the real nerves and I like that :slight_smile: Maybe that is why Sasha was smiling again as mentioned before, because it really pays back to some people.

It relly depends on your character I guess. After playing 3/4 years with traktor my brain was thinking more as a computer. My brain was really focused on computer and technical stuff like file types, bitrates, folders in which each song would be, mappings, cables, type of cables, you know better than me…
For a small brain like mine this tend to be quite frustrating. Specially when things didn´t work as expected. Being back on vinyl and cdjs had made my brain forget the computer stuff and focuse more on mood, feelings and overall music. I dont regret trying traktor as now I feel I really have my own opinion and aprroach towards djing.

Again I guess it really depends on your personality and aporach to music which way of djing you choose. I do feel that both are very different crafts and probably the feeling of acomplishment will be different for each type of person.

33

Ean has always clarified that his Controllerism routines are not what he does when DJing. Maybe check his mixes on his website first to decide if you would like to hear him mix, but I concur if it was just the Controllerism routines
I agree that some of the routines are not very ear pleasing. I whole heatedly agree with the Fx whoring by noobs that sounds like ass, but they will either get better or go away in time.
To me using a controller to DJ doesn’t equal Controllerism. Like using turntables to mix doesn’t equal turntablism (DMC routines).

34

Exactly, I’ve been saying this a lot lately which is why I often put ‘controllerism’ in quotes.

35

Excellent discussion.

Ean’s videos, to me, simply allow your brain to detach from a normal perspective on what you can / could do with any pair of tables and give you a point of view from someone who wants to completely deconstruct and then reconstruct a song on the fly. I don’t get the feeling he is some wanker artist out to create music only he likes, but instead publishes those videos to say, “We are working hard to design equipment that allows you to create something like this in whatever style and flavor you may like.”

I do agree that when you try to take 4 mastered songs and squeeze them together with loops, effects, slices, etc., you are generally going to create nothing more than a muddy mess. Serves as a good reminder to work harder on track selection than using what boils down to bondo, paint, and sandpaper to cover up a bad patch job. :confused:

36

As would I, bad haircut and all (actually that’s jealousy - I’m going bald).

And to me - I turn the sound down and just watch in amazement.

37

That’s GOOD.

38

checkout some of Ean’s mixes in the promo section, it’s totally different than what he does on his video demos. the last one i heard was this house mix that was more on the traditional mixing side of things. don’t write him off as just the cue juggling guy.

39

Really glad to see some interesting discussion on here instead of the usual threads.

40

Good to know I’ll check it out.