P.A School (General Advice).

DJ Gear & Hardware Hardware: Controllers, Mods and Gear
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P.A School (General Advice).

Public Address systems.
Talk to me. Obviously I know something about them, I’ve been destroying them for well over 15 years as a DJ but I am thinking of buying one for an events company (long story that we may come back to).
So tell me what you know and assume you are talking to a noob.

Here’s the requirements (please note this is a hastily conceived thread) so I might change my ideas:

  • Max capacity of venue lets say 300 people. More likely to be 100 - 150 but I may need to be able to do a slightly larger event and I don’t want to ruin the system.
  • Must be assembled by one person so think portability but not compromising on sound quality.
  • Must fit in a small van. You know the kind VW Caddy, Vauxhall Combo etc.
  • Do I want powered speakers or a separate amp? I’m thinking powered with a separate multi channel mixer for mics and the input from the DJ mixer which will have 2 x Technics, 2 x CDJ and Traktor..

Things to consider.

  • Power (electricity) requirements. I won’t be using a generator.
  • It will not be used by live bands but ‘could’ be used for karaoke.

I’ll add more as I think of them.

I’m thinking 2 tops and 2 subs - ones that have caught my eye are Mackie Thumps and JBL EON515XT but only cus they are in local store and look pretty.

Money is not infinite but I’d like range of choices please. I do not want to buy a budget system only to regret it and buy twice but I’m not putting the Foo Fighters on at a festival. Think weddings, parties, weddings, birthdays, weddings, so pretty much weddings.

I really am at the infancy stage of this idea and I have just blurted this thread out without much thought and I know there are dedicated wedding DJ forums but hey, lets try home turf first.

Over to you guys please. :thumbsup:

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To meet all those requirements…

Four QSC KLA12’s (@ $1800/ea), Four KSUBS (@ $850/ea).

You will need two tops & two subs for 100-150 people. With four tops & four subs you could handle 300 (to maybe 500) people. The system will be able to “coast” running on “8” or under.

Once you add subs, there is no reason to have tops larger than 10" to 12". A 15" loaded top will be 50% heavier and 1/3 more pack space with (almost) no benefit to output…since the subs are handling the <100Hz content.

A&H Zed mixer, sized to your needs would be “entry level” analog mixer for “live sound” style applications. The Behringer X32 is getting really nice reviews for a digital mixer. Once you go digital, you will NOT want to go back.

I thought you said you didn’t want to compromise on sound quality…??? :stuck_out_tongue:

If local pick up, or the ability to fondle the hardware ahead of purchase is a requirement, you should add that to your list. I totally feel you on that. Just beware, that the “small” listening room is NOT the best way to critically listen to a speaker. At that point, we’d need to know a lot more about your local stores and shopping options.

I am not a fan of the Mackie or JBL EON lines. Maybe you won’t care, maybe you will.

Honestly, EVERY PA system benefits from EQ and other processing. A digital PA manager (DRPA, DRPX, Behringer DEQ/DCX, etc) is a REQUIRED piece of equipment (at least IME). Many will have pre-sets for different powered speakers, and many manufacturers will have recommended settings for different PA managers.

So…what PA systems have sounded good to you? Maybe that is a good place to start.

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SIM, you probably know a lot more then me but I have done probably 200 hours worth or research on all QSC speakers. Watched every video on youtube and read every thread I can get my hands in. 95% seemed to say the ksub is garbage for low end and compares more to a mid range speaker. On the other hand, the kw181 was just a beast for low end.

2 kla12s and 2 kw181s have been in my shopping cart on zzzounds for a year now. Everytime my wife sees me eyeing the submit button she threatens divorce…

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Alliteration is difficult to interpret when talking about Pro Audio.

The real difficulty in recommending QSC products is the horrendous lack of specs.

But, this is a fair enough critique. The OP suggested the Mackie Thump as a possible sub choice. The TH18s is 73 pounds and 6.95 cuft, and does not include casters. This offers a “-3dB” points at 50Hz to 115Hz. The TH18s has a street price of $700.

The KW181 is 88 pounds, and does have integrated casters. This is a “single 18” loaded active subwoofer. The “-6dB” points are 38Hz and 124Hz. What the curve looks like between those points is anyone’s guess. The cabinet is not quite a cube - 20" x 24" x 30" (8.33 cuft). The KW181 has a $1400 street price.

The KSUB is 74 pounds, and has integrated casters. This is a “dual 12” loaded active subwoofer. The “-6dB” points are 48 Hz and 134 Hz. The cabinet is 26" x 14" x 28" (5.90 cuft). The KSUB has a $850 street price.

The peak outputs should be similar. With a digital PA manager, the shape of the SPL curve can be adjusted to whatever is desired.

The KSUB offers substantially better performance compared to the Mackie TH18s, with similar size/weight considerations, with a slightly larger price point. The tops I recommended are $1800/ea compared to the OPs suggestion of JBL EON515XT @ $350/ea. I do think the tops will make enough difference to the overall sound to be worth that premium. Even so, I did not want to come back again and recommend subs that were another 2x increment in cost.

The KSUB is 40% less pack space, and more than 15% lighter. There is a 10Hz difference in low end frequency roll off. That is a thing. BUT, both subs are really only OK for “live sound” applications…neither is impressive for the low-low end of most modern EDM. Both are somewhere in the middle in terms of typical DJ content - for Top 40, Pop, Disco, R&B, C&W content…both subs are OK, but not stellar. The KW181 will have more low end than the KSUB for sure.

For the difference in performance between the KSUB and the KW181, the difference in size & weight and cost is hard to justify. YMMV.

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Fwiw, I remember being a lot more impressed with that whole qsc line than the little jbl or Mackie thing back when I worked at GC (c. 2006), and they might have been updated since then. Hell, they might not even be the same line.

That being said, it was REALLY hard to sell them. Everybody wanted to spend a lot less and wound up with eons/similar and blasted people with nothing audible but distorted snares. Or, they were buying a passive system, at which point, it was easy to sell QSC and usually sounded better, you know, for a lot more money.

Still, I think a rack case with casters and much lighter cabs are easy to pack/carry…except for getting the 100lb+ amp rack back into the car.

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Since you are in the UK look into RCF. Their 312a is a very nice well balanced top for moderate volume events - way better than Mackie Thumps. It’s not that RCF is going to be any less expensive over there than in the US necessarily - it’s more that US based stuff costs so much more from what I’ve picked up. They make a wide variety of subs too - 15s and even a 12 as well as 18s. Even though I’ve never heard a powered RCF sub they should be good considering the rep of the brand.

I also like Yamaha DSR112s for tops. Yamaha subs not so much, but they would be OK for what you’re doing. JBL PRX700 series is also a good safe choice. I wouldn’t advise mixing brands for a variety or reasons.

It sounds like sub choice will be dictated primarily by van size. You are just going to have to measure and do the best you can.

External signal processing is not necessary or even advisable for this application.

You can also get by with a Behringer mixer for this application. It will not be the weak link in your system. I’m a full time DJ who supplements his income with weeknight karaoke. I’m currently using a QX1622 for my karaoke shows, and it’s perfect. It’s quiet, the plate reverbs are very smooth, and it has individual channel compression (absolutely necessary for karaoke - to not go without this feature!)

I’m a club DJ on a lot of systems. My personal system is JBL SRX. If budget allows, an STX system powered by Class D amps with front end DSP will be a huge step up from any of the above.

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Thanks for the replies guys. I’ll get around to replying properly in the morning.

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FWIW, I own 2 QSC K12’s and have played some house parties and weddings 100+ people with the bass extension switch on, no problem. While a sub would be nice, I haven’t found it necessary. I was able to fill a 2400 Sqft open space barn with room to spare.

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MODS - this thread was moved without a redirect (thanks) so I had to search for it.
It does not comply with the criteria of the Hardware: Controllers, Mods and Gear subforum as it is not about a specific product, a modification or controller nor about reviews so doesn’t belong there. Also both Bentosan’s and Jesters rule posts state "Use General Discussion for “what to buy”.

Peace.

[This is a moderated post and not viewable to members]

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Not having used the Mackie or JBL product for a large number of years so can’t make comment on them.

Here in Melbourne (Australia) there’s plenty of RCF, and I’ve owned several sets. Currently I have a pair of ART310A speakers as foldbacks, but I used to use them for FoH with a 12" RCF TTS12-A sub … Awesome compact powered system good for upto 150 people in wedding situations or about 120 for 21st functions. Only reason I sold the sub, I was offered a Nexo PS8 system at a rate I couldn’t pass up, it’s an extremely impressive compact system that I now use for my smaller to mid sized gigs and so I’ve just kept the 310’s as utility wedges to take to gigs where the in-house system doesn’t have any foldback.

Now back to your dilemma … Not sure how pricing goes in the UK but how about:

QSC Options
2 x K10 & 2 x KSUB - very balanced compact system, it’s the minimum I’d recommend.
2 x KW122 & 1 x KW181 - wooden boxes, sound much better than the plastic K-series but larger, more expensive - add an additional sub if funds/space allows.

RCF Options
2 x ART310A & 2 x SUB705AS - starting point for RCF, similar results to K10/KSUB system
2 x HD12A & 1 x 4PRO8003AS - bigger sub, more powerful 12" tops, still easily manageable by 1 person but sub will need castor kit - once again a second sub would be great but size and money are going to come into play as they’re reasonably expensive.

EV Options
2 x ELX112P & 2 x ELX118P - their ZLX are entry level tops (no sub) but the ELX have been around a while and work quite well although no wheel kits for subs and it’s quite large compared to other similar priced systems for not much extra output.
2 x ETX10P & 2 x ETX15SP - mid priced reasonably compact system, wooden enclosures, US designed and assembled, more power than most of it’s size - but probably quite expensive compared to other compact systems.
2 x ETX12P & 1 x ETX18SP - probably cheaper than buying the ETX10P/ETX15SP due to only 1 sub (as the subs are very close in price) so getting a second sub would be ideal - great power, quality output and crossover option on the speakers.

Nexo “money is no problem” Option
2 x PS10 R2 (left/right) & 2 x SL600 15" Subs, powered by NXAMP4x1 - exceptionally clean, powerful and portable system for upto 300 people, not exactly earth shatteringly strong in the bottom end but very balanced and little need to EQ any nasty frequencies out … it’s quite true that as you pay more there’s less you need to do to make it sound good.

Other things to consider - external processing (comp/limiter) and EQ. I run a variety of outboard gear depending on the gig, but most of the time for general DJ use I have a compressor or limiter there to stop the amps from running into clip, or like I’ve had a few times, for when a half-clued-up punter knows where the master volume is when you’re not looking. Minimum recommended is a DBX 166XS, but if you can get a Drawmer MX30 it’ll sound better, and if you want something better again (what I normally use) a pair of DBX 160A compressors are hard to beat for the money.

EQ is another handy tool, especially if you’re going to be doing karaoke with a few live mics. I’ve used quite a number of them over the years and from these the lowest recommended to highest it goes something like: DBX 1231 (anything under this is hardly worth it), DBX 2231, Klark SQ1G, BSS Opal, Rane SEQ30L or GE60 (still got both of these but discontinued), LA Audio EQ231G, XTA GQ600, Klark DN360, Klark DN370.

The trend these days is to go for an external “do it all” processor, and although convenient being that it’s contained in 1RU unless you’re going to spend quite a bit on an XTA or Xilica or similar (nothing Driverack or Behringer) then you’ll get better results out of the old-school Comp/EQ setup. Most powered speaker systems also have some crossover options and limiting so some mild compression and EQ a few frequencies that poke out are all that most need.

Mixer for mics - I used to carry around a Xone:464 that I’d mix a Duo with and then DJ between their sets, such a great sounding mixer … but these days I’ve got a little A&H ZED60-10FX and then whatever DJ mixer I fancy for the gig. It’s compact and sounds decent and without going overboard and getting a Midas Venice or digital mixer (Qu-16) it does the job. Also available with 8 mic pre’s instead of 4 (ZED60-14FX).

Foldback Speaker - Not that it’s really required for all gigs but consider getting one or two so that you can hear what’s going on and if you get some serious karaoke people they’ll also appreciate it … but you’ll need another mono/stereo EQ for sure!

Hope this helps, sorry for the length but this type of thing is what I do!

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I don’t post on here much, but I have a couple of thoughts because IMHO speakers are the easiest thing to get wrong, the weakest link in the sound quality chain and the most obvious thing to the punters. It’s very difficult to buy on spec, you don’t buy a car without driving it, so buying speakers without being able to see/hear them in “action” is hard.

300 people can actually be quite a crowd and as I’m sure you well now can be completley differnet audio challenges. If they’re all at the bar and a group of 20 are dancing at a wedding, that is very different to 150 teens all on the floor and soaking up the sound.

I would also recommend looking at RCF, DB-Tech or Yamaha. These brands are money, but it’s very well spent.

Active will probably save on setup, number of components/flight cases etc. And the modern ones are not too heavy either.

I also agree that when you go with subs then 12 tops are fine, but depending on the power ratios you may need more of them, maybe having multiple boxes to scale for events is the way to go? 2/4 tops and 2/4 subs depending on venue perhaps.

I have 4 x DB-Tech 15 subs (active), and 2 x RCF 6001a full range (active). But I also have 4 x Wharfedale EVP12 full range/tops (passive) with Numark Dimension Amps. The RCF are way-way too heavy for a 1 man setup (the subs are a bit better) but for the smaller stuff the EVP’s can go on poles on the Subs.

Finally if you want to borrow something, or just see what these would do for you typical gig, let me know, I’m over in Essex but I have a van. I’ve had this lot on the sale board here some time ago, but it didn’t go so it’s still in the garage waiting for it’s next night out!

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Personally, i have 2 RCF 422 and 2 RCF 718 subs they sound very good. the 422 carry their sound very clear and far but have a lot of basss in them so for smaller events you will be fine without a sub. the sub are loud and crisp. The subs are pretty light and small but with a big punch, easy to carry for 1 person.

At my work i use jbl prx 612 as tops and cerwinvega cva 118 subs, i use these outside for dj work and as a pa system for small bands. I live in the Caribbean so it’s all outside use. Get a lot of compliments for the sound. THe JBL’s are sounding really good and clear. The vc subs are a bit heavey but sound good for their price. this system is 4 years old and minimal used 3 times a week. no problems at all.

I have seen many systems passing during my dj’ing because their is always a liveband with their own equipment. i personally don’t like the QSC’s that much. Somehow they sound harsh to the ears when really cranked up.

The Yahama’s dsp 12’s are nice too.

For a mixing board i use the allen & heath zed series i would recommend one with fx, if you wanna do karoake.

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Honestly it sounds like you are in a similar boat to what we do for our shows. More is always better of course - but we use (and have used) our system in a variety of ways.

We have:
2x QSC KLA12
2x QSC KW181
2x QSC KW153
2x QSC K12
1x Driverack PA+

We generally run two rooms, the second room being much smaller. We use the K12’s for monitors (one in each room). We use the KW153’s on their own in the second room, and then the KLA12’s with the KW181’s in the main room with the driverack PA+. The KLA12’s are a new addition and frankly they are awesome. What I really want to do is sell the KW153’s and replace them with another set of the KLA12’s and two more KW181’s for the side room, and add two more KW181’s for the main room. Then combined we’d have a monster system with two KLA12’s on each side and then 6 KW181’s to power the low end (or 2 KLA12’s in each room, 4 KW181’s in the main room and 2x KW181 in the side room).

What really changed our mind instead of going with another set of KW153’s or KW152’s was really the ability to combine it all together for one room. The KLA12’s work really well together - so having more of them is a direct benefit and sound great working together very easily.

We focus on Drum and Bass, Techno, Breaks; tending towards underground dance music.

Frankly I just really like QSC sound. I’ve listened to a lot of different speakers and options - and for simple powered stuff you can’t really go wrong with the QSC stuff. Run everything through the driverack - it’s ESSENTIAL to be able to tune your sound.

To start I’d recommend the KW181’s for the low end. If you can swing the KLA12’s I’d go for those, otherwise honestly the KW152’s are a solid match for the KW181’s. I wouldn’t recommend the KW153’s unless you’re going to be using them solo often - they are ridiculously bulky and a pain to fit into vehicles a lot of times. They ARE a workhorse of a speaker however - I’m continuously impressed at how they good they sound on their own.

For a long period of time we had the KW181’s and KW153’s - and it’s an impressive setup. We also did a couple shows working with another sound guy friend where we combined systems - and that worked well.

Just as a note: We can fit 2x KW153’s, 2x KW181’s, 2x K12’s, 1x Driverack and our wire box into one vehicle (A small SUV - Ford Escape with the back seat folded down). The other stuff we move in a secondary vehicle. We are really thinking about getting a trailer or van if we continue to build our sound up further.

Really though you’re going to get great low with the KW181 and tops it really comes down to what you want from them.

I’d also swear by the QSC warranty. We had a sub go out after a gig and we were able to get the thing fixed very quickly 100% covered. Can’t beat a 6 year warranty.

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This is all excellent advice guys, Keep it coming.

I’m currently looking at all the systems you guys are recomemnding and I’ll reply with my thoughts.

Im currently looking at 2 top and 2 subs. 4 of each is definitely too much for me at the moment both on cost and necessity, I wont be doing 300-500 cap venues and I can always add at a later date.

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Quick question:

What’s the advantage of the K181 over the K-Sub. I mean real term advantage ‘assuming’ that the event is a wedding for 100-150 people (which is most likely) rather than a large club type event (which is much less likely).
The K-Sub looks incredibly compact.

I haven’t decided on anything at all but 2 x K12’s and 2 x K-Sub is far more cost efficient and space saving than the same with the K181.

And also, how about 2 x K12’s and 2 K-Sub - assuming that I will only be taking small events (100 - 150/200) OR 2 x K10’s with one K181..with the possibilty of adding a 2nd K181.
OR would 2 K12 and 2KSUBs just be fine for the kind of venue/event Im doing.

I should also state, whilst these events will be for the more discerning wedding events they are not going to be full on EDM/D&B tough events, they really won’t so try to keep things on the lower end of high quality (if that makes sense) I can alway add as I feel the need.

Again, I’m just thinking out allowed.

And, for a smallish setup like this is a DSP really so essential. I’m thinking outboard mixer (A&H Zed) and a wedge monitor for myself.
I don’t mind starting quite small and building. Some of you guys seem to have some pretty impressive kit already. I just wanna get up and running with quality gear that I can add to. Money isn’t overflowing for this startup but I do wanna do it right.

Again, massive thanks. This thread is gold.

Ooh additional: supposing I did go with the KSUBs with the K10’s be sufficient or should I stick with the 12’s there’s quite price difference.
Is this a decent start: QSC Audio: Premium Sound for Professionals at DJKIT®

EDIT: I’ve seen a few YouTub clips were people are saying the even 2 KSUBs are not sufficient. Is this really true, for wedding?

Would one KW181 be better than 2 KSUBS.
Also, no matter what subs I chose can I safely go for the K10’s instead of the K12’s?

Sorry about the messy questioning.

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I don’t know if I’m just sticking my oar in, but here we go. I haven’t used the QSC stuff, but just looking at the specs and trying to answer your question regarding the Ksub and the 181. The short answer is the KSub is not as loud and not as deep. Whether this is a real world problem to you compared to the cost and portability is a personal decision.

I personally feel that smaller cones using tuned enclosures to develop the bass don’t sound the same, can honk more and are more difficult to integrate, in a as much as there is a gap between them and the tops. But 2 12s and 2 Ksubs does look compact.

I wouldn’t go for 10s unless it was a very small venue or you had a few of them, like you might have around a bar. I think they will struggle for volume.

And although other people may not agree, I think a DJ (mobile disco/jock/whatever) should look like a DJ, but without looking messy with rough flight cases etc. Will people think they are getting value for money if you turn up with what they think is a couple of “boxes on sticks.”? I went to a wedding and the guy had a Bose L1 system with their funny sub and stick arrangement, the sound had a very obvious hole to me, the bass was monotonal and it sounded pretty poor. I also thought he looked cheap even though he had relatively expensive gear.
Just my 2c

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The biggest difference in sound from the K181 -v- KSUB is that the KW181 produces more content in the 40-50Hz (ish) range.

For 100-150 ppl at a wedding, the difference will be noticed but is not big enough to drive a decision. At least IME.

For some perspective, no 15" top on a stick is able to get below 50Hz, and most don’t get below 60Hz! In relative terms, the KSUB with tops is still better than any “full range speakers on sticks” approach to PA.

My subs are capable of “flat to 40Hz” performance. At a LOT of venues, I have to raise the high pass to 45-50Hz to avoid rattling all the Exit signs, and other fixtures. There is quite a bit of content in that range in Top 40, modern R&B, and even Country (modern Country music is a LOT harder on sound systems than one might expect). However, VERY few sound systems are capable of much content <50Hz, so most of the audience won’t notice what they have never heard before is missing.

Adding cabinets increases the SPL, but does not change the frequency response (unless they are horn loaded cabinets, and none of these are). So, 2 KSUBS will be louder than 1 KSUB, but will still not have 40-50Hz content than a KW181 will have.

IMO, yes you are safe in going with K10’s. Once you have a sub, no top will be producing <100Hz (ish) content. So, while the K12 does have a 2-3dB advantage in SPL, there is no advantage in terms of frequency response over a K10. If you need the last 2-3dB of output, you need to double the number of cabinets.

Your back will agree with the decision to have smaller cabinets on every load in/out. :sunglasses:

Yes…but. Avoid the “top over sub” pole, and get a second speaker stand. The best place to put tops is (almost) never the best place to put subs. Put the sub next to a wall or in a corner. Put the tops 1-2ft over the heads of the audience, split at least 25ft apart.

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Again, excellent advice guys…very much appreciated.

I’m not actually set on QSC. I am looking at other brands it’s just that the brand QSC keeps cropping up in conversations with people and I see a lot of folks selling their current PA’s in order to upgrade to QSC. They seem like a trusted brand.
It’s just annoying that for a QSC system you need to spend a third more than an equivalent Mackie or RCF. Although RCF seem to be well respected as well…people keep telling me Mackie is to be avoided.

On reflection I think I need to avoid the KSUBs. I’m not convinced I’ll get the extra oomph I might need. I know I say I’m doing wedding type events but there will be a fair amount of ‘dance’ music (for want of a better expression) and I don’t want to be left wishing I had gone for something bigger.

I dunno if I’m gonna be able to stretch to 2 x K12’s and 2 x KW181 and all the websites doing packages to the KW122 with the KW181 rather than the K12’s which is a price difference of £600 which I could spend on an outboard mixer and personal monitor and other extras.

I’m kinda erring on 2xK12 + 1xKW181 to get me started.

Thoughts ?

19

That’s because Bose pretty much exclusively makes crap. Those sub + stick things…yeah. I worked at GC when we got them the first time, and they were supposed to “revolutionize” small venue setups because of super-wide sound dispersion and functioning as stage monitors and main sound at the same time.

They were better than some of the stuff people replaced with them, but…really their marketing materials were all lies. That’s all bose does…lies and fancy faceplates. As far as I’m concerned, it’s all they’ve ever done.

[quote=“Karlos Santos, post:18, topic:68448, username:Karlos_Santos”]
QSC…seem like a trusted brand…people keep telling me Mackie is to be avoided.
[/quote]
QSC stuff is good, in my limited experience. I’d find it hard to buy another brand of amp without going really high end.
I think it’s more those stupid mackie powered speakers that sound like garbage…the ones that compete directly with the JBL Eons that are also crap.

20

Just to give my views on a few of Karlos’s questions without quotes ('cause I’m lazy :wink: )

If the cabs are comparable I would not consider QSC to be an upgrade from RCF (or even Yamaha for that matter). The times I’ve found myself on QSC systems (K12s or 153s over 181s) I’ve found them to be quite ordinary and nothing special.

Avoid the Ksubs no matter what. They are absolutely horrible if you are playing any current popular music. “Black Widow” for example has prominent low Ebs (39hz) that drive the whole track. On a Ksub it will sound like someone turned the subs off. “Don’t Tell 'Em”… same thing but with low Ds (36.7hz) - and these are just two examples taken from the current top 10 downloads charts.

Quality powered cabs have enough internal DSP to get you 99% of the way there without external DSP like a Driverack or even EQ.

This is another subject completely but since it’s been brought up… tops on poles over subs next to the dance area is often exactly where you want them for weddings and other events where you want the sound localized. It also gives a much cleaner look.