Xone DB4 Channel Gain problem.

DJ Life & Community General Discussion
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Xone DB4 Channel Gain problem.

Hi I am new to forums so please excuse me if I have posted in the wrong area.

I have just purchased a Allen and Heath Xone DB4 mixer. What I can not work out though is how to adjust the volume levels of each channel. I am a DJ and I do not mix with the crossfader. I use the channel faders to bring in the mix and fade it out. So using these to control the overall volume levels is out of the question. I normally use the master gain of each channel to balance out the volume and make sure that one tune is not overpowering the other. The DB4 does not seem to have this function on it at all. It has a master trim button but all this seems to do on mine is amplify the sound from a basic level sound which is quite loud already. I have this trim/amp button turned all the way down as is very loud to begin with anyway and clips at just half the full turn that it can do. I know that I can use the tops, mids and low buttons to control the volume, but this is just too long winded as I will have to turn three buttons instead of one to get the desired result.

Does anyone know how to get around this on this mixer or am I doing something wrong? Also is this a common thing with Allen and Heath mixers? Not to have an individual master gain for each channel that totally kills the sound. Sorry for the story long question but I would love for any help you can give me.

I have 2 x CDJ1000 mk3 plugged into the digital part of the mixer. This is where I am having problems. I also have 2 x Technics 1210 plugged in via phono and I have just checked and I do not have this problem. These volumes are very quiet and I have a full range of kill via the trim button to turn it up a lot. Maybe this is caused cause I am using digital???

Row

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Don’t have a DB4, but I had a quick look at the manual to see if I could see anything that might help. You can adjust the trim level in the menu. Have you tried that? Is the volume to loud in your headphones, booth output or mains? I believe each of those has an adjustment in the menu as well.

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Hi thanks for looking for me.

The problem is with the main volume output. Even the master and channel volume levels (flashing lights) are on or just over the recommended levels. Any more and you would be entering the clipping zone.

I have tried adjusting the trim in the menu. All this seems to do is reduce the overall volume output. So basically the volume will then be limited and the trim button will still clip where it would have anyway (if that made sense) This would also not help at all if you were playing vinyl as that too would be limited.

When I play a record deck I can turn the trim all the way up and the total volume of this deck is still not as loud as the CD deck (via digital) with the trim turned all the way down. So basically the CD deck will always overpower the vinyl deck. There seems to be no way of reducing the individual channels passed what is allowed. I think that it is a digital thing seeing as digital is almost streamless sound.

Row

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The record decks are set to phono correct?

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Yes that’s correct. The record decks are set to phono and the CD decks are set to digital.

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There’s a couple of DB4 owners on here, hopefully they can help.

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I know what you mean about the standard trim being pretty high with some sources, but I’ve mostly used software adjustable inputs. I’ll see if I can find another way around when I get home tonight. Are the CDJ levels too high with RCA as well as digital ins?

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Thanks for your help Photojojo really appreciate it.

Hi DigitalDevil,

Yes the RCA levels are quite high as well. A lot higher than the vinyl levels. Not that far off the digital levels to be honest.

This is the first digital mixer I have had. Is this a common problem with digital do you know?

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I have not had this problem on the three digital mixers I’ve owned (Evo 5, DN-X1700, and DDM4000), but every one of them had an option in the digital menus to adjust the amount of boost the sound was getting from the mixer (in 3dB increments as I recall). So in the case of the DN-X1700 for example, it was actually too quiet on one of the inputs when I first got it, but I was able to boost that from the menu.

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the output of a turntable varies radically with the type of cartridge/stylus being used. what are you currently running and what mV is it rated for?

if you would like a quick solution to your issue, pick up a set of shure M44-7’s or similar high output carts (the 44-7 is rated at 9.5mV).

MoMo is running ortofon arkivs and elektro’s which are -2 mV down on the 44-7 and has gain for days.

there are firmware update in progress that will address the gain structure of the phono preamp for low output carts. bpm is quite close at hand, so more will be revealed then.

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@ mix architekt
I am running Ortofon Concord DJ needles.

The problem is not with the vinyl decks it is with the Digital and line in inputs.

These are way too high and there is no way of reducing them. Even on the lowest trim setting it is loud.

I have recently spoken to Allen and Heath and you are correct there is going to be a firmware update to address this problem. This is what they said..

“In regards to a master channel gain control, I’ve discussed with the XONE designers who inform me this functionality will be included with the next DB4 Firmware release, I don’t currently have a release date on this yet but it is in the pipeline.”

I have a few other problems with the mixer but this was my main concern. I unfortunately am unable to wait for the firmware update seeing as there is no telling when it may be. I have sadly returned the mixer now and will most likely be purchasing the DJM900 (downgrade I know) Hopefully there will be a few tweaks to the mixer and if this happens then I will not hesitate to buy another one.

Thanks to all of you for your help.

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sorry for running off the road with the cartridge comments, i got my wires crossed with another thread.

i have the latest beta of the firmware and the gain adjustments have been implemented, with +/- 12dB available on the analogue inputs.

what you described on the spdif inputs is quite different from the behavior that i experience with the DB4. although you’ve returned it, do you remember the levels you were averaging on the meters with the spdif or line input selected with your input gains at -10 (all the way down)?

when i use the DB4 for djing with traktor, i rarely have the channel gains above 11:00, but it’s all relative to the source material being played. when i use it as part of an effects send for production work, the gains are all over the place, but that is a by product of the levels being sent to it and the desired effect i’m looking for.

in the example of turntables and a DAW or dj application like traktor, their output is variable relative to components like cartridges, or the gain structure within the application itself. you can set traktor or live to be clipping the entire time, and easily overload the inputs of a mixer.

with cdjs, i believe they have a fixed output, so the cd itself will be the main variable in output level. but i don’t have any to reference at this point in time.

anyway, it may be too late for such questions but if you remember what the levels were like on the meters relative to the gain settings, please share.

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lol no need to apologize I appreciate the advice.

Yes I remember that with the CDJ’s via digital the levels were just over the 0 with the orange light peaking. This was with the trim turned to -10 So if I was to turn the trim to 11.00 the clipping light came on.

The RCA line in was just below about the 0 mark. With the trim at -10 According to the manual 0 is the optimal level advised so even if I wanted to turn it down I couldn’t.

That’s great that the gain was corrected with the firmware update. Is that just with the analogue part or does it apply to all gains? Also did it just increase the total gain to +/-12 from +/-10 or did it turn it into a total kill? Maybe I should have waited a couple of days to see what would have happened. Difficult one really as I only had a small window to return it.

The other problem that I couldn’t get to grips with as well, which was another factor for me to return it. Was the fact that the master gain control was not linked to the master level. So basically you couldn’t tell what output you was kicking out. You could turn the master gain all the way up and the master level would still match whatever your channel was giving out. For my mix discs I need to monitor the overall output including the mixes. When you mix two tunes together the volume obviously increases. This did not seem to register on the db4 so it was hard to see if I was keeping everything level. (if that makes sense) do you find this or was this just me.

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Well, I have not used the DB4 myself, but that sounds like the normal behaviour on A&H mixers. The master VU meters are not influenced by the master volume pot, but rather reflect the volume the mixer would put out if the master volume was set to maximum. To me this makes a lot more sense than the way Pioneer does it because you can always play with the VU meters in their normal range regardless of how hot an input the amp/mixing board/… needs.

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True I can understand that, But how would you monitor your mixes to ensure that you are keeping a steady controlled volume across your entire mixes? Also wouldnt it be best to keep the master gain turned up full wack then to correctly reflect what the mixer is putting out. Or does the master control gain not affect the levels at all then?

The pioneer mixers do both. Monitor channel levels and master levels seperately.
On the pioneers the master volume meter reflects the overall output so is easy to see if you are clipping too much. The levels of the channels might be the same, but combined they will obviously be louder. So if I kept the channel volumes of two decks just before peak, then mixed them together I would be peaking the mixer therefore causing distortion. With Allen and Heath I can not monitor this. (or couldn’t work out how) As soon as I put the fader up a little the master meter showed the full level of the channel as if I had put the fader all the way to the top.

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Just leave the master gain as it is and adjust the trim per channel if one track isn’t in the desired range (of course, in the case of a source that is already full tilt at minimum trim there isn’t much you can do).

Dunno about that… on mine each channel VU meter is pre-fader, but the master VU reflects the fader position. Can’t work out any settings that would reflect what you’re saying (FW 1.02/March 2011).

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[QUOTE=DigitalDevil;352681]Just leave the master gain as it is and adjust the trim per channel if one track isn’t in the desired range (of course, in the case of a source that is already full tilt at minimum trim there isn’t much you can do).

That still doesn’t let you monitor the mixes though. It just lets you monitor the channels individually. I still can’t quite get my head around how you would monitor the level of the mix. Once you start bringing in one tune into the other you add to what was there originally. So therefore amplifying the overall sound. Is there anyway of monitoring this with the Allen and Heath mixers?

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the master volume knob on all xone mixers is not additive, so when it is wide open, it’s at unity gain. what you stick on the master bus at that point is what you get (provided you haven’t adjusted the master output trim on the DB4’s setup menu.)

the level you see on the master meter is the actual level of your mix - the sum of all the channels on the master bus. (provided the cue monitor is not engaged)

if your system is calibrated and has proper gain staging from start to finish, when you hit 0dB on the DB4 with the master wide open, it will be the same on your recording device/sound system processor/etc - provided inputs are matched, cables are sorted, etc.

if it is not, then you would want to explore where the break down is and calibrate things using pink noise and test tones. this will allow you to find what is what; an unbalanced link will throw everything off, and running a line output from a mixer into a mic input is going do the same.

you also have to compare specs at that point and see what each component’s operating levels are. 0vu doesn’t mean anything unless it’s got +4 dBV, -10 dBu, 0 dBFS, etc. associated with it. books like yamaha’s well worn sound reinforcement handbook cover these topics in great detail, as do newer offerings from focal press.

if you’ve used up all the headroom on the master bus and are clipping, turning down master output doesn’t reduce clipping on the bus, it only reduces the level of the master bus output, distortion included.

that said, while it is possible to clip the inputs on the mixers, the master bus on the DB4/92/V6 has gobs of headroom and you can drive them extremely hard. what the mixer is feeding may not.

in environments you can control, it is possible to run the mixer as previously described. in many club situations, the sound systems are all over the place in terms of the signal chain. mixers into mixers into processing setups with all sorts of chaos in between. what reads as one level on your mixer can be totally different at the processor; so there’s need to attenuate your master output to adjust accordingly.

so let’s say you’re hitting an average of +6 dB on the master meter of the DB4 with the master knob wide open. the sound man in your club tells you that your level needs to come down. you turn down the master knob to the level he wants and keep mixing on the DB4 to your 6db reference. (or if you wanted to have the full range of control over the DB4 master level knob, you could adjust your level down via the output menu - and leave the knob at it’s max :slight_smile: )

as long as you’re within the parameters he’s set for you, everything is good. from that point, he can turn you up and down, driving the system according to the demands of the night. if you start pegging your own master bus at that point, the whole thing falls apart. once you establish a common reference for everyone in the system, stick to it and everything becomes easier and ideally will sound better.

i need a pfl level on the master to mix properly. if i was only seeing the output of the mixer afl, i wouldn’t be able to see what was happening on the master bus - especially in scenarios where the gain staging is adjusted for the rest of the house system. it’s always give and take with these things, but what we have on the xone mixers is incredibly effective if you want to optimize your signal flow.

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Great post!!

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Wow that was some serious explanation. Thanks for taking the time to type that. Great explanation. I understand what you are saying. I have had to rewire so many places. Mainly due to the fact that Stevie Wonder had been employed to wire it all up.

So you are saying that both combined levels of the channels are represented in the master meter display once mixed together?

My DB4 was only showing in the master meter the channel that was cued. So if I wanted to get a true meter reading of 3 or 4 channels playing at once then I had to cue all 3/4 channels at the same time. Or was I missing something here?