BentoSan's Ableton Smart Mixer Setup Issues (Crosstalk?)

DJ Life & Community General Discussion
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BentoSan’s Ableton Smart Mixer Setup Issues (Crosstalk?)

I combined the techniques shown here: Smart Mixing Traktor into Ableton - 4 Mac - DJ TechTools with the smart mixer file for Ableton from Smart Mixing Setup for Ableton - DJ TechTools. I get audio out from Traktor, through Jack, into Ableton, then back out through Jack and into my USB soundcard, which then goes to two stereo channels on my external mixer, there’s no problem getting audio out through my studio speakers…

My problem is that I can hear both decks A and B from my mixer master output no matter which channel fader is up on my external mixer.

Relevant Equipment:

+MacBook Pro 2.4 GHz, 2GB RAM running:
–Traktor Pro 1.1.1
–JackPilot (downloaded yesterday, don’t know version)
–Ableton Live 7
–MAYA44 USB control panel (needs to be running whenever the card’s plugged in to
–keep the volume up on the in/out channels)
+MAYA44 USB sound card (4 in / 4 out)
+Numark DM1050 mixer
+Vestax VCI-100 SE 1.3 firmware

My start-up sequence goes like this:

1.) Plug in and turn on VCI-100
2.) Plug in MAYA44USB
3.) Open MAYA44 USB control panel software and turn up the volume
4.) Open JackPilot and “Start” routing
5.) Open Traktor Pro
6.) Open Ableton Live 7 and load BentoSan’s LE smart mixer file (I don’t have hardware ports for cueing, so I can’t use the smart cueing)
7.) Set up routing in JackPilot (Traktor 1-4 send → Ableton 1-4 receive, Ableton 1-4 send → System 1-4 receive)
8.) Turn on DM1050 mixer
9.) Rock out

Deck A in Traktor sends to JackPilot inputs 1 and 2. Deck B in Traktor sends to JackPilot inputs 3 and 4. JackPilot sends channels 1 and 2 to the Deck A section of BentoSan’s Ableton file, while channels 3 and 4 get sent to the Deck B section in BentoSan’s Ableton file. Ableton outputs 1 and 2 (Deck A post-compression?) get sent to JackPilot, which sends them to my MAYA44 outputs 1 and 2, while Ableton outputs 3 and 4 (Deck B post-compression?) get send to JackPilot, which sends them to my MAYA44 outputs 3 and 4. My MAYA44 outputs 1 and 2 go to my mixer’s Channel 1 R and L, while my MAYA44 outputs 3 and 4 go to my mixer’s Channel 2 R and L.

I’ve got the VCI-100 controls mapped appropriately to control the smart mixer in Ableton, removing the controls from my Traktor .tsi file to make room. Everything in software appears to work as normal (the VCI-100 controls everything just fine, too).

Now when I play two tracks at once, one on Deck A, and one on Deck B, I expect them to stay separate, as I have them mapped to different stereo pairs, through JackPilot, Ableton, and my MAYA44. What I don’t understand is: why when the channel fader for Deck B on my mixer is turned all the way down, and the crossfader is over all the way to Channel A, do I get a mix of A and B out of my master output on my mixer? What this says to me is that Ableton is mixing the two decks together and spreading the signal across both stereo pairs. What I need is for deck A and deck B to be completely separate audio signals (so I can control them on my external mixer), but have the compression applied based on the opposing signal anyway. Is that possible? Is that supposed to be how it works, but I broke it?

The current results sound great, but it’s entirely useless for my purposes with my hardware. Having the smart mixing setup running while mixing completely removes any ability for me to hide the stuff I do while cueing in the headphones from the audience, therefore it is unusable.

I can’t mix entirely in software, because the MAYA44, while having a headphone output, cannot address it as a separate output. It’s a hardware mixdown of all input and output channels, so I can’t use it as a monitoring port. I’m not interested in a 100% software mixer. I want the flexibility of my mixer to still be present in my signal path. Is there a way for me to keep it, or do I have to mess with a whole bunch of stuff and find some crazy way to make my sound card allow headphone cueing, while doing all my mixing in software?

Please keep in mind, I have no money for gas to get to my new job on Tuesday, let alone to spend on more DJ equipment or software (or else I’d have a sound card that supported headphone cueing out-of-the-box, like the Audio8 and just call it a day).

I just want a way to do smart mixing in software, but not have it actually mix the signals, just compress the bass, mid, or high on one deck or the other (or both), and allow me to still cue up the next song. I lack the knowledge of Live and back-end audio technical stuff to figure it out on my own, or I’d just make my own rig from scratch.

I hope I didn’t provide TOO much information, I just have no idea how to explain this, or what to do to fix it.

Best Regards,

DJ ATP

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it sounds like<hah .. it sounds to me like you might have an extra pair selected in one of the jack streams. Its easy to get things crossed up in jack because of the UI. Maybe check that.

3

Thanks. I’ll double-check my routing tomorrow after I get back from my first day at my new job. Time for me to hit the sack right now. Gotta make a good impression.

Regards,

DJ ATP

4

I have the exact problem…minus the port for cueing.

I also got to the point where i realised it is JACK.

Trial and error i guess!

Maybe someone can post a screenshot of what Jack looks like when its routed correctly??

That could possibly help.

Or upload a jks file?

:slight_smile:

5

yougotta be super finite when clicking on the jack streams. whenever you click on an input or an output all the connected stuff is displayed over to the right in the display. Make sure you only have the stuff you want connected on each stream otherwise you end up with all kinds of cross wiring.

Its really easy to mix stuff up if you are just clickin on stuff. The pilot will tell you exactly how many streams are operating. theres a counter.

6

Take a print screen of your jack wirings and also a print screen of your ableton screen - that will help greatly in identifying the problem :slight_smile:

7

Uploading screenshots are such a pain…but here:






I don’t know what to show you in Ableton, or why. I didn’t change anything, I just mapped midi controls to the necessary things as directed. Right click on a control, choose midi map, map the control, click another control, map another midi control, repeat, repeat. Three knobs, two buttons, two channel faders, and one crossfader. I don’t do headphone cueing from my soundcard, so I’m using the LE version…and I don’t need the extra two buttons for smart-cueing.

So I just tested the setup, and what’s happening: deck A and deck B are both ending up on my deck A section on my mixer. I slide the crossfader on my hardware mixer all the way to the right, I get no sound. I slide the crossfader to the left, and I can hear both tracks.

8

If your externally mixing then in Ableton then you need to change the output routings on the SCA and SCB so they are being output to the appropriate outputs on your soundcard and not to the master channel. Thats why i asked for a printscreen of your Ableton setup as you need to change a couple things in there to output the decks correctly.

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Ah, ok. I don’t know how to do that, but at least it’s something simple. Could you direct me where to go to tell the

Here are screenshots of the main setup and my midi assignments:


I think I understand the basics of what you’re talking about. The reason I’m able to control anything in Ableton with the crossfader is because you had both decks routing to the master channel in Ableton, which has a crossfader on it to fade between the two channels. What do I need to change in order to keep the two decks’ signals separate? I’m literally three days new to Ableton. Any audio production attempts I’ve made have been on Windows in FL Studio, so I’ve never felt compelled to give Ableton much attention.

I’m going to setup a copy of the non-LE file and experiment with mixing (and cueing) just in Ableton, and I’ll set up my channel 3 and 4 output on my MAYA44 to be my headphone cue or something, with an adapter to plug in my headphones. It might work out for the best and save me carrying my mixer around in the future.

Thanks, BentoSan. As usual, you saved the day.

Best Regards,

DJ ATP

10

You need to open the input output routings (you can unlock this by pressing the I/O button on the bottom right of the Ableton interface) - you then need to change the output routings from the SCA and SCB channels to external outputs.

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Ok. I’ll mess with those and see what happens. If I’ve got any more problems, I’ll post here again. Thank you BentoSan!

-DJ ATP

12

That sounds AMAZING. I still don’t quite understand how what I do affects the sound, but I’ll figure out a concrete pattern to it all after some practise, and then I’ll be able to spend so much less time EQing. Thank you Bento. You just rocked my world.

It should be sufficient to say the results evoked some happy noises I would rather nobody heard from me. You know, for sake of my outward manliness.

All I had to do was select output to channel 1/2 for SC A and channel 3/4 for SC B. Now we know. Hopefully anybody else who has similar issues finds this thread and is as happy with the results as I am. FYI, I reassigned the freq. split knob to my crossfader, since it acts like a crossfader, IMO.

BentoSan, could you maybe explain to me what I’m doing to two simultaneously-playing songs with the LOW/HIGH COMPRESSION knobs, FREQ. SPLIT knob and LOW/HIGH BAND SELECT buttons I’m messing with? I’m sure I could figure it out to some extent, but I won’t REALLY actually KNOW what I’m doing. I understand the basics to smart compression (Moldover’s video from long ago), but I can’t quite figure out what part of the system I’m affecting with the knobs and buttons and what happens when I affect it in a given way.

Best Regards,

DJ ATP

13

Well for the moment forget about the high smart-mixing, so just turn down the high compression knob to 0. Also forget about the frequency splitter knob for the moment, just leave that at the halfway position. These are more advanced controls that you wont be using as much as the other controls - if you dont know exactly what they are doing then you shouldnt really be messing with them.

Use the Low-Select button to set the compression of the incoming track on.

Now turn up the low-compression knob a bit, nothing too savage unless your going for a really hard cut on the bass.

Now when you use the internal crossfader in live and crossfade to the middle the low frequencies on the incomming deck will be compressed (acting kinda like turning down the low EQ of the incoming deck).

Keep crossfading over and the lows on the incomming deck will automatically come back into the mix as you finish crossfading over.

This acts kind of like automating the most basic dj mix, except it sounds much more natural than the same thing being done with EQ’s - as the amount of bass thats being cut is constantly changing in time with the music with a precision that no human could possibly handle.

I personally don’t recommend using external volume faders or cross faders as this will mess up the smartmixing - you need to be using lives internal volume faders and crossfader for the optimum performance.

The best way to hear how things work try putting on 2 basslines or two kickdrum loops, put your crossfader in the middle then play with the low-select button and the low-amount knob. You will hear one kick drum or bassline over power the other one (or not at all) depending on the state of the low-select button and the low-amount knob.

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Hi Bento,
Im not trying to “JACK” this thread. But as its a current discussion… How does your smart mixing play out conceptually when or if you could add an element of key based gating or compression triggering to the chain?

15

I’ll say one thing about this smart mixing setup. My mixes sound much better (no change in perceived loudness) than they used to, even with my cueing on my external mixer.

I’ve got a sort of pattern down that works alright. I’ve come to a realisation (even if it might be incorrect technically, it’s correct in my short experience) that when I have both the high and low band select buttons lit up, the effects compress deck b, and when they’re unlit, the effects compress deck a. I turn down the low compression knob a little bit to reduce the bass crowding, and I use the high compression knob like a volume knob (I inverted the midi range on all the controls to make them act more like volume knobs, where compression is applied turned to the left) to bring in the melody and vocals on the incoming track until I’m comfortable with the mix. Then I cue up the incoming track to the point I want to start it at, turn up the channel fader on the incoming deck on my external mixer, then unleash my mix. Partway through, I either switch the on-state of the compression to change which track is being compressed to switch basslines and beats, or I just finish out the mix and cut out the outgoing track. Took me an hour to get the pattern to some kind of not-ugly, but everything sounds better with smart mixing.

If I could have my eq knobs compress the signal rather than just turning the volume down on it, I think my basic eq-ing would get better, too…but I’m just as happy with this method, as it frees up six knobs on my VCI-100 (the eq section), not to mention the two mini-knobs already freed up by not using headphone cueing in Traktor.

I wish the VCI-100 had a built-in sound card. It would make everything so much easier. I would have paid $100 to $150 more for the unit if it came with a (decent-sounding) sound card in it. I like my MAYA44, but it’s just not flexible enough for what I need. I originally got it to use with ms. pinky for a cheap DVS setup…but I’m going the cheap Traktor DVS setup until I can get my hands on an actual Audio8 or a good firewire card I can trick Traktor into thinking is an Audio8. Lucky me having a mac…unless Traktor fixes that glitch.

So. I hereby end this rant. I’mma play with the mixing like you suggested, Bento, to get a better feel for it. Thanks.

Regards,

DJ ATP

16

What do you mean by key based gating ? Like moldover style key gater effect ?

Not sure what you mean by compression triggering either ?

Could you be a little more detailed ?

17

.. setting the low, mid, or high frequency channel to gate/open when a certain tone/frequency is present. and … with compression. basically using the sidechain input from the other channel ..

I guess thats sort of how it works. I was just wondering how harmonic mixing could apply to this. Im not an expert or anything.

18

That would be a different technique completely different from smartmixing - but theres no reason why it couldnt be used in conjunction with smartmixing.

Using gate to only allow something though when its sitting in a specific frequency range sounds like something you would do in the studio to isolate parts of a track and not something you would attempt to do live though. Isolating specific sounds\notes in a mix is quite difficult work even in a studio, trying to do it live would probably wouldn’t sound too crash hot.

Still not quite getting you with the compression thing either, the sidechain input is being already being fed from the other channel in the smartmixer.

19

ok .. that answers my question.. thanks.. i was just wwondering if you had set something like that up.

By the sidechain/compression thing i meant using a narrow frequency to trigger the compression like the gate. this would create rythmic compression based on the key of the incoming track right? Again wondering how far you have pushed this model
.

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It wouldn’t work very, you would get percussion sharing the same frequency range triggering the gate which would cause all manors of misfires, then when a note plays that isn’t played loud enough to trigger the gate it wouldn’t gate at all. This isn’t something i would try live in this context, i would leave techniques like this to the studio as they take alot of tweaking and experimentation to get sounding right.